I have a very good friend who owns/operates a small motel. He tells me that he has special rooms he keeps for "discount guests". These are rooms next to elevator shafts, the ones in the back where the dumpster is right behind the window, etc. I wonder if campground owners save "special" sites for those who ask for discounts?
QUOTE(joez @ Aug 16 2010, 11:56 AM) [snapback]23568[/snapback] ..."special" sites ... :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm sure they save these special sites for ALL KINDS of special people. Have always wondered about the same thing.
Generally lodging folks that don't treat customers right, don't make it. This is especially true in our internet age with all of the review sites out there. It is harder and harder for unhospitable people to get away with it now.
Anyone that has ever flown with any airline knows about a discount. Obviously everyone gets to their destination at the same time, but the costs can vary by hundreds of dollars depending on when the reservation was made. Then we also have the "stand-by" passengers that fly for less than any of us that reserved our seat earlier. If you want to ask for a discount at an RV park you have every right to but they also have every right to say no.
Exactly why I was trying to stress the point of value by time. A RV site is perishable, once not sold can never be sold again. If you are selling tires and miss a sale, you can sell them tomorrow. The income from a unsold site for a night is lost forever. The main problem is when people getting a discount blab it around. We just camping in Ashville, NC right on the river at a very pretty site. I was talking to the guy next door and he remarked how great it was for only $30 a night. I was paying through PA only $15.night. I didn't say anything.
Rates for every park is different due to ammenities location running costs etc etc. But as I was trying to point out, when Fred who has no intrest in Nascar plans his trip comes into your park to find that you have doubled the price of a regular night but somehow still have a spot to rent are you going to rent it at full price or give a discount? Will you give a discount because you have a near full capacity campground full of Nascar fans having a pre post during race party? Same logic increase price because it a nascar weekend.... but no we have a empty spot so lower price. ===== REGULAR PRICE NO INCREASE NO DECREASE. A potential customer can come up with 100 reasons to lower the price a operator can come up with 100 resaons not to lower the price. Price as advertised should apply. Think about it when if you ask for a discount remember that that will $X out of the bottom line to complete renovations/repairs/ upgrades etc. So when when you come back the next year and the bathroom is only cleaned once per week instead of every day and spot checked. At your job do people ask for discounts? do you give them IF you sell widgets for $10 each and a customer comes in and asks for a discount do you give one for a one time sale. OR will you give a discount if they buy 7.
Billy, I am afraid you totally missed the point of the difference of timed value vs rack rate. Understanding this is going to be the key between red and black ink at a lodging business. You are selling a perishable product and the value is way different at different times. Therefore the rate people are willing to pay is different. The good businessman has to understand this and work it into his business plan. Charge the highest rate you can and still make a good [profit. This will vary a lot throught out the year. It worked for me for a decade and made me a lot of money. I thin it is safe to say that the rack rate will be right about 1/3 the time, high 1/3 the time, and low 1/3 the time. This must be understood and dealth with. Business people allow for their desired cleaning of rest rooms and work it into their costs. This does not mean they have to charge the same to everybody. Think about the different value if your sites and why should you under or over sell them beyond that value.
I would have a hard time pulling up to a campground office with $75,000 worth of equipment and ask for a discount. To me, parishable or not, the campground has expenses based on site useage. If the campground is not full, the owners are already taking a loss for the night. You asking for a discount means that someone still has to clean the bathrooms, fix up the site after you leave, pay for the electricity and water you use, and cover the insurance incase you trip and bump your knee. I am an oil dealer and a farmer. The other night, a customer demanded a discount on his oil delivery. After a little back and forth, and finding out that he will take about 500 gallons of fuel, I agreed to a discount. All said and done, I lost $28.00 on the sale that I could have made selling to other customers. While waiting for his wife to write a check, he was showing me his brand new Ferarri and the BMW 740 he just bought. He showed me the car in the other bay and he said he bought it new in 1978, a Lambroghini Countach. This P.O.S. beat me up for $28.00 and brags about his half million dollar car collection. Every Saturday in spring, I wake up at 2:30am to sell at the local farmers market. We get all sorts of people in there. We get customers that are a dollar or 2 short wanting 2 plants. If they are nice, decent people that do not try to bargain, I will work a deal without them asking for it. At the same time, there is a group of elderly women from the eastern Europe area that only want to see what the best discount they can get is. They never buy anything and waste my time. They come into my area, tell people that my product is dying, diseased, wilted etc.. and think I will cut them a break. These 70 year old women dont care if I am trying to feed my family or cover my expenses - they only want to get the best price. I've resorted to having the State Police escort them off the property. While I thought at the time that would be a bad move, other farmers are more willing to deal with me as a straight honest farmer, and customers that witnessed the event understand what the farmers are going through. I cannot bring myself to ask for anything more than the published rate. I figure out how much I need to make on every sale to cover expenses and put a few bucks in my pocket. Campground owners do the same. If they have vacancies, they are already at a loss for the night and your $40 bucks is not going to put them in a new tax bracket. I would tell you to find another campground. Considering the distance between most campgrounds, you will spend more than the $10-20 bucks you would beat me down in fuel. Next time you ask for a discount, ask yourself first what would you do if your boss asked you to work for a reduced rate because not enough customers came into the store that day? Would you take a 10% pay cut because some pay is better than no pay, or would you want your entire hourly rate because that is what you need to survive.
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Aug 21 2010, 04:37 PM) [snapback]23651[/snapback] Billy, I am afraid you totally missed the point of the difference of timed value vs rack rate. Understanding this is going to be the key between red and black ink at a lodging business. You are selling a perishable product and the value is way different at different times. Therefore the rate people are willing to pay is different. The good businessman has to understand this and work it into his business plan. Charge the highest rate you can and still make a good [profit. This will vary a lot throught out the year. It worked for me for a decade and made me a lot of money. I thin it is safe to say that the rack rate will be right about 1/3 the time, high 1/3 the time, and low 1/3 the time. This must be understood and dealth with. Business people allow for their desired cleaning of rest rooms and work it into their costs. This does not mean they have to charge the same to everybody. Think about the different value if your sites and why should you under or over sell them beyond that value. There is one extra "cost" that every business has that cannot be actually calculated. At my bank, we have minimum loan amounts for every type of loan. Could we make money on a lower loan amount? Absolutely. What comes into play is something I will call the "nuisance factor" You have to make a certain amount of money to make any sale, rental, loan etc. worth the effort. If my loan officers made loans that only made the bank a few dollars, they would start to behave like it just wasn't worth the effort (we pay commissions based on loan originations and a small loan may earn therm only $.50 or a dollar.) You do too many of these extremely low commission loans and pretty soon the employees start to feel they are doing a lot of work for nothing (even though they are still getting their salary etc) and their attitudes begin to suffer. I am sure the lodging industry is no different. You still have to put up with the customer, their demands and complaints are no less if they paid a lower fee and eventually the innkeeper will begin to feel the extra work is not worth the extra money. The problems really begin when the sour attitudes brought on by the low income work is carried over to the high income customers. In my experience, it is much easier to not let things the cause morale to drop to come into play in the first place than it is to try and raise morale after it has fallen.
""""I am sure the lodging industry is no different."""" The thing that in fact does make it different is the fact that if you don't sell it right then, you loose the chance to sell it ever again. In banking, if you don't make the loan, you "sell" those SAME dollars to another customer or even the same customer again the following day. Same thing in the oil distribution business. If you don't sell it, you still have the oil. If you don't sell that night's lodging, then it is gone forever. A similar business, is the movie business. If somebody comes in for the last show of a run and you have 40 people in your 200 seat theater who have paid full price and you sell 10 additional seats to late comer folks who won't ever get the chance to see the movie again, then the income from those 10 seats goes straight to the bottom line. Same in the lodging business except for the variable costs like water, sewage, electric, wear and tear. Your fixed costs like mortgage, taxes, ETC don't change a bit. You have to look at what you are going to get out of this sale at this time. The big guys in the hotel business do stuff like this all the time. I live near Orlando and if you walk into a nice hotel in the off season at 8 PM on a week night you can get a room 50% off and they are thrilled to have you. As I said before, fixed rates are going to be too high around 1/3 the time and too low around 1/3 the time. As smart operator adjusts the rates according to the present value.
I don't want to get into a pissing match over this. As a business owner, I know what my product cost me to produce, deliver and maintain. I understand your point, but is taking a few bucks out of the pocket of a struggling industry really worth it? You may feel that you are doing the CG owner a favor by using his water, electricity, sewers, and facilities but in reality, how is it helping him? Businesses cannot survive by breaking even. I'm sure you are not the only person that asks for discounts. Giving you a site at cost may fill a one night void, and with this website, create a good revie, but it robs the owner of revenue that can be put back into operations. If you ask for a discount on a 2 night stay, and save $30 bucks, that equals the gallon of paint needed to spruce up the snack bar that you complained about. In the big picture, if the utilities are not being used the CG is not spending money. Campgrounds are mostly seasonal businesses. The owners have a 6 month window to make a yearly income. Morally, I cannot pull up to an office with $75,000 worth of equipment and ask for $10 off. If the CG is running a special that they offer, I would take it. I didn't ask for it, they offered. Otherwise, I decided to visit that CG based on reviews and facilities that are favorable to me. If I feel the CG charging $50 a night is worth it to me, I will stay. If they ask $65 a night but don't offer cable, a pool, have bad reviews, and bad location, I would not visit them. I asked before, if your boss said work is slow today and asked if you would work for half your hourly wage, would you?
It isn’t a question about full price against discounted price, it is a question of discounted price against nothing. I used to have the same opinion as the full price or nothing folks on this interesting thread until I got in my own small business lodging business for 10 plus years and really thought it thought. It is all about filling sites that would otherwise be empty and getting needed income rather than getting nothing. It is all about knowing your costs and being professional about making your business a success. I had many months that would have been a losing month, if I had not done this. You have to look at the big picture. My rig is worth about $75,000 and I watch every penny. I think many if not most RV’ers are in the same boat as us, especially in these bad economic times. Occupancy rates are down in the RV business. Discounts might extend a trip for some folks and help other campground owners. In the example, you have to think of the $30 you got rather than obsessing about the $10 you didn’t get. It is easy for an owner to get mad at the people who are asking for a discount and not thinking of the extra income they are getting. I once had a man get me down $10 on a room and then in the morning buy a local house for $425,000 cash. This theory only works when the site would be empty anyway. Selling a site (like NASCAR race) at regular price when you are going to be turning away scores of people wanting to pay a lots more is also extremely stupid. When asking for a discount both sides need to be open and professional about it and keeping things happy and above board. An owner has to look at this as a business and maximize revenue. They must evaluate the situation at that moment in time and determine what the value of the site is right then, what their actual variable costs are, and make the correct business decision. Passport America for example has over 1500 members and with their individual restrictions, the member campground owners have decided to agree with my ideas here.
I think the important thing to add here is that asking for a discount is just a place to start a negotiation. IF an owner would lose(?) money by selling me a $50 site for $10, I would hope that he would have enough business sense to offer it to me for a $30 figure, or whatever it would take for him to be happy with the transaction. Personally, I don't think I would EVER make a specific offer for an RV site but by asking for a discount I would hope that he will make a decision to either refuse me or give me a figure that would be acceptable to both parties.
Technically when someone goes to a campground any available site is empty but that doesn't mean it is going to stay that way. I might ask if they accept Good Sam or something like that but would never ask them to give me a discounted rate just because they may or may not have a spot that doesn't get rented that night. The people that come to our campground that quibble over the rates the most are the ones with the fancy motor homes. The people with the smaller Class C's or small 5th wheels always pay without hesitation. If I rent a space for $10 off I would practically be giving it away since those people will still use pretty much the same amount of our electric, water and sewer as those that paid full price. I would also be very offended if I paid full price and then the guy with the fancy camper boasted to me that he asked for, and got, a much better price.
I don't see a problem asking for a discount. If the owner gives it to me fine. If he doesn't that is fine too. It wouldn't be a deal breaker, cause I was going to stay there anyway. The owners should know how much money it takes to run a campground. Once they reach this number or pass it they might be more willing to give out discounts. If it is the end of the season and they are falling short of the magic number, they might as well give them just to make as much money as they can. If it means filling a site or not. You make nothing on an empty site. People were talking about raising prices for Nascar. Good business. why not. Campgrounds on the ocean or lakes raise their prices for the season. If you rented a beach front site would you ask for a discount because you don't swim or don't use the ocean. Why would you ask for one at a campground that is catering to Nascar fans that weekend because you don't like Nascar? Most campgrounds have in and out of season rates anyway by me. When I drove a truck for a living, the company's started giving discounts to get the freight. To offset this they told the drivers and dock workers they want them to give back 10% of their wages back to them. They said that if we didn't they were going out of business. They needed better than 50% yes to get it. They got it. I don't see a right or wrong answer here. I just gave some of my opinions on what was previously said. My intent was not to tick anyone off. It is just my point of view.
dog bone, I think your 4th sentance is the most significant of this entire discussion. It wouldn't be a deal breaker, cause I was going to stay there anyway. That's why I don't think it is necessary for CG owners to give these types of discounts--because they don't have to. You are going to stay anyway. Lindsay, I understand everything you said about the lodging industry and that any vacancies are perishable and can never be sold after the fact. But campgrounds are different than hotels. I might ask for a discount at a hotel because I know that I can drive 200 feet down the road and find another hotel. The hotel knows that the possibility of me leaving if I don't get the discount is real. But I would just be bluffing at a CG if I did the same thing, because there is usually not another CG 200 feet away. And jumping in my car and driving to another hotel is very different than taking the RV and somewhere else, especially later in the day when I know I need time to setup before I can spend the night. I think a CG owner can be safe 99% of the time in saying (polietly) "I'm sorry, but I cannot offer a discount." They will not loose any business, because the RV is going to stay anyway. Likewise, giving a discount would not be getting them any additional business, because, again, the RV would stay anyway. A discount given would just be throwing money away. An honest question for you Lindsay, since you ask for discounts all the time. How often would you actually leave and look for another CG if the owner said no discount?
We don't always ask for a discount. Our procedure is my wife (I drive, she decides) starts looking around in the books for a campground when we get an idea where we want to stay that night. We rarely make reservations in advance as we rarely know where we are going to be. We love to do it this way. She calls around stating with Passport America and Camp Club. She uses Woodall’s and Travel and gets an idea what she is looking at and then makes calls around. She then asks for their lowest price and we discuss and call back for finalize pricing and get accurate directions. Our style is also to frequently stay 2 nights so we will have time to explore the area. That is also a plus for the campground owner and my wife states that up front so we can all be on the same page. The owner or employee knows their situation and offers or doesn't offer a discount. My wife has been on both sides of this for years and handles it very well. On our last 2 long (3 month) trips, we have stayed only a a couple of campgrounds that were full. Owners have a very good idea if they are going to be full or not that night and I wish they were always full, but in these bad economic times we are in, this isn’t often the case. They are just as glad to get half or 2/3’s rather than nothing. That is the choice, not all or 65%. Most owners that I talk to realize this and think of what they are getting rather than what they are not getting. This is what so many honor the 50% discount clubs. Savvy businessmen have thought all of this thru and are thinking of the bottom line instead of just that one RV‘er in the “fancy“ RV. As far as they 99% sure the folks will stay, that hasn’t been our experience at all. This is especially true when doing it on the phone before arrival. To the poster who is concerned with the “fancy” campers, you need to realize that the people coming are what pays your salary and if it wasn’t for those pesky customers, you wouldn’t have any food on the table. All customers need to think they are special and in this world of internet review sites, any negative attitude can really affect the bottom line.
Any way you flip it, I still think it is a dirt bag move to take advantage of someone when they are down. These people (campground owners) have a limited timeframe each year to make a yearly profit and you show up asking for discounts. I understand being in Good Sam gets you a discount at most places, but you shold take that as enough. Are you atleast repaying the favor with good reviews or cleaning up before you leave? Or do you ignore any chance to help out figuring someone else will do it?
Meatwagon, you haven’t understood a thing I have said about the business aspect of getting a discounted income vs. no income. Why do you think that over 2,000 campgrounds belong to the 50% discount clubs? They do it for exactly the reasons I have outlined and they understand perfectly. Take a look at the actual prices on reviews and you will see they vary all over the board. Every review has a place for price and I fill it out truthfully. I review each place truthfully and would never upgrade or downgrade a campground based on any discount. We campers owe that to each other. Savvy campground owners are thankful for the extra income over and above their fixed costs and are not forced to ever give any discounts. We have heard from campground owners here that variable costs (water, electric, sewer) are less than $5 per day. Having been in similar business for a decade, I know the business aspect very well.
QUOTE(Seattle Steve @ Aug 23 2010, 11:22 PM) [snapback]23680[/snapback] dog bone, I think your 4th sentance is the most significant of this entire discussion. It wouldn't be a deal breaker, cause I was going to stay there anyway. That's why I don't think it is necessary for CG owners to give these types of discounts--because they don't have to. You are going to stay anyway. The owners that act like they are the only game in town would be surprised at how many people do not come back to their park or how many people only stay one night when perhaps they may have stayed two or three. There is not a hotel anywhere in the country that does not give discounts if they have vacant rooms. It is well known to everyone and is even advertised on TV with Priceline.com. Most people consider an RV park as an outside hotel, where we are bringing the room and the park owner is supplying the utilities. The park owner is trying to make a profit, and we are trying to extend our own financial resources as much as possible. I think that there is a compromise position there somewhere where both parties could be happy with a transaction. And for any park owner that considers me a Dirt Bag for asking him for a discount, I would just remind him of how much I have invested to just be in front of him at this very moment, with an RV that is depreciating by the second, that I am there to reach an agreement that could benefit us both. The rest is up to him.
