Design Your Dream RV Park

Lets have some fun!

I'm a firm believer that the people who buy products and services know what they want and what they don't want.

This is true for people who develop RV Parks.

They put things into the RV Park that they "think" RVers want, but don't ever bother to ask.

I call this "making decisions in a vacuum", resulting in features that you end up paying for but didn't want.

Quite a few years ago, a bunch of trucking companies got together to create the perfect big rig for hauling products across the country...the result? Freightliner!!!

So, lets put together our collective intelligence to DESIGN the DREAM RV Park with all of the features that RVers want.

Tell us all of the features and designs that you'd like to see in your DREAM RV Park.

All of the things "that would be nice" can be stated here.

I'll create a comprehensive list and see if we can get some developers on board to make them.

Ready...

Set....

Go!!!!

 

The first problem with "designing by committee" is that by the time you include all the features that everyone wants, you also end up with too many features that many don't want, and aren't willing to pay for. RV'ers are a very diverse group, with very diverse desires. Once you get past the basics of hookups, etc, the park designer is really better off designing for a target market group within the RV world. Families with young children for instance, are typically going to want different feature sets than retired seniors for the most part, while location and seasonal weather conditions may call for yet another feature set. And even hookups can be an issue, since commercial parks almost always need full hookups for their market, while state and national park campgrounds do quite well generally with just electric or water and electric, although more are going to full hookups as funding permits. I don't think a universal "one size fits all" RV park design is either practical or the result marketable. As a senior RV'er, I don't find bounce houses, playgrounds, and wading pools, features that attract me to a park, but I'm sure others do...

 

Okay, I'll be the first (oops, second) "huckleberry" to jump in on his one. Might be some fun once a bunch of responses get accumulated. My list includes a few things we have noticed lacking in certain park we've stayed at over the years and that have kept us from staying at them for more than just an over-nighter..............

* At least one row of back-in or pull thru spaces that aren't completely covered over by trees. We enjoy watching the evening news over satellite TV from the area we live and when a park is completely inundated with heavy tree growth It's impossible to get a signal thru them. We can certainly live without TV for one night, but it would be nice not to have to, etc.............
* Wide enough spaces so that when we open our full length slide out, it doesn't butt up against the neighbor's next door slide out, or against a big bush or tree.........
* Conveniently placed hookups so extra lengths of fresh water, sewer hose and electrical don't have to be used. Also fully functional and working hookups.............
* CLEAN restroom facilities...!!!.......
* "Rules" that are followed by everyone and enforced when someone doesn't follow them...........
* A manager on duty 24 hours a day< or at least an emergency number that can be reached and answered, in case of emergencies..............
* Employees that have at least half a brain and know what's going on at their job.........
* And lastly but a real deal breaker for us. At the very least gravel roads and pads. "Dirt" RV parks don't work for us anymore as we be a couple of nicely matured seniors that like to stay clean and not have to stomp our feet off when entering the coach every single time. Spoiled aren't we.......

That's about all I can come up spur of the moment other than perhaps not having to roll out the sewer hose only to find that it's going uphill and then another 2 to 3 inches higher to fit into the inlet opening. Never have figured out how some parks feel that sewage can travel uphill to get emptied..... And yes they are out there and we have run into them a few times..........

BankShot...........(aka Terry)

 

I completely understand your point.

its a challenge, but anything worth doing isn't going to be easy.

Thanks for your input.

After all of the features are collected, do you think that a prioritizing of them would be appropriate?

Most important to least important.

I have an idea that may solve a lot of the problems with most RV parks that are being developed and that you already addressed...not wanting to pay for something that you don't use.

When we get further down the road on this concept, I'll post my idea and see what everyone thinks.

 

Thanks for your initial and detailed response. I would say that I can't believe someone would design an RV site where they expect gravity fed sewage to run uphill, but I've been in the construction business for almost 30 years and I've seen some really stupid things that engineers and architects have asked me to do!

Let others know about this thread if you would. The more people the better.

I'll compile a list and then get everyone to prioritize it.

We can also brainstorm about ways to keep the cost for nightly stays within reason.

I've got an idea that I haven't heard before about developing RV parks that would keep the cost down and the quality up. One of the keys is that the owners can't be greedy people.

That's all I'll say for now!

Don't want to give everything away!

 

If your idea involves paying separately to access various features, I know of a number of parks that have tried similar plans and have found them difficult to manage. Charging extra for WiFi and/or cable TV access are a couple of exceptions that do seem to be acceptable if the quality of the paid product is acceptable. Unfortunately, particularly with WiFi, it often isn't. Since park location is such an important part of which features would be desirable and in what priority, I don't see any way to come up with a universal layout that will fit all RV'ers and all situations in all locations. If there's a popular family attraction nearby for instance, having many family oriented features in the RV park as well is likely a waste of resources with little return, since families will come for the nearby attraction, not what the RV park offers beyond the basics.

Our own list of desirable features in priority order is quite short:

1. Enforced common sense rules
2. Well maintained
3. Reasonable prices
4. Spacious reasonably level sites
5. 30 amp electric minimum
6. Water
7. Sewer connections (properly installed)

We don't care about WiFi or cable TV since we bring our own typically better services with us. Fire pits go unused due to breathing issues, and paved roads and sites are nice, but not a factor in our park selections. As I said earlier, family oriented features like playgrounds, etc., have no value to us. Other people of course, will have entirely different desires and priorities.

RV'ers are not like trucking companies that have a relatively common goal. The first Freightliner brand trucks by the way, were designed and built by Leland James' Consolidated Freightways for their own use in the early 40's to gain the power needed to more efficiently climb the western mountains.

 

Actually, I don't have any pre-conceived plan or concept.

Just getting feedback from people who are in the space and have definite opinions of what they like and don't like.

Paying for additional services seems like it would be complicated to manage.

Maybe some RV parks could be designated adult only, so people who don't want children running around screaming wouldn't be bothered with that.

I'm sure that we can figure out an equitable arrangement.

I have a concept about developing RV parks that would keep the cost low and give the amenities that most RVers want.

FYI, soon, we won't need land based Wifi. Low earth orbit satellites are coming and about 1800 will be in place over the US by 2020. These satellites will provide WiFi at 25MB for less than $30 per month with unlimited data. At least that's what I've been hearing. The top speeds will be near 300 MB.

Sorry if my facts about Freightliner were wrong. That was the story I had always heard.

My point was that the people who are using something or purchasing something are where the expertise and knowledge is located....what not tap that knowledge base so they get what they want?

 

Most current parks tend to have a target market in mind, such as the age 55+ plus parks that are fairly common in "snowbird" locations like TX, NM, and AZ, and to a lesser extent, FL. And the family oriented parks in popular summer vacation areas, such as the Jellystone franchise. In recent years, even the venerable KOA franchise has begun categorizing their parks as "Journey", "Holiday", or "Resort" parks, recognizing the variations in the needs and desires of the RV'ing public.

I don't know how much investigation you've done so far into the costs of developing an RV park, but land acquisition, the permitting process, land preparation, and the installation of just the basic full hookup amenities, landscaping, and administrative building costs can approach $50,000 per site or more in some locations. And then there's the ongoing fixed overhead costs of course, none of which gives RV parks a high ROI given the typically seasonal nature of park occupancy.

I wouldn't count on LEO satellite Internet for awhile yet. If Elon Musk is consistent about anything, it's that he always misses his projected dates for his projects. Oh he gets there, and usually spectacularly, but he's never on time...

 

NYDutch, thanks for your input.

I have looked into the cost of development of RV parks and the complexities that are involved. Being in the construction business, I'm surprised that nobody has streamlined the development process like they have in other parts of real estate development.

It may have something to do with the poor ROI, not sure.

I believe that working together as a group, that RV parks that fill the wants and needs of RVers can be developed and run profitably...and at a daily rate which is reasonable.

Elon Musk isn't the only person putting up LEO. He just received his license from the FCC which requires 50% of the satellites to be in place and operating by 2020.

I guess we will see.

Any other thoughts?

 

Greetings Bret;

I applaud your undertaking. Good product research is the first step to a successful enterprise. I'm glad you agree that the task is going to be challenging.

My co-users of RVPR have offered you their opinions and skepticism very well. FYI, I agree with their comments and I'm sure you will use them to your advantage.

You wish to build an RV Park that will attract the greatest number of users and you are looking for what we need in a park. I am happy to provide my list.

The basics are easy. We all want the standard amenities. Good access to the park. Reasonably wide parameter roads. Sites that are as spacious as possible and well laid out. Services that work as they should and very importantly, being able to provide what you advertise for a fair price.

What you can provide over and above the basics is your challenge.

First and foremost is attraction. Why do I want to be at your park?.

Lastly. Once you have visitors coming to your park, how will you get them to come back with their friends and family?

I think RVPR will be a great tool for you to use. There is good usable info for you in the actual reviews that we have submitted plus reading through the Forum discussions.

I usually read the negative reviews first when choosing a destination. Mostly, they related to vendettas between staff and customers but they also list undesirable features. Unhappy people are more apt to disclose bad features where as happy customers tend to overlook flaws. Hint hint. Keep your customer happy!!

We recently had a discussion about expensive parks. It revealed that we don't mind paying over $100.00/night so long as the experience is worth it.

My views on extras such as Wifi and Cable TV etc are that they are important only if you have no other means of entertaining your customers. If they are going to stay in their units, then you are not providing the experience they are seeking and they can probably be better entertained at home.

Good luck with your project.

Darrell

 

We've talked about the relatively poor ROI for most new RV parks, and you've mentioned "streamlining" the development process, but I wonder if you've really looked into that ROI issue. If you build an apartment building and reach an average 80%+ occupancy rate, you're likely going to do well assuming your rates are in line. An RV park that caters to the traveling public though, is almost never going to achieve that high an occupancy rate on an annual basis. Parks that cater heavily to permanent/seasonal guests may reach numbers that high, but is that the type of park you have in mind? Earlier you mentioned a shortage of RV parks, but the reality is that there is only a shortage in some areas, some of the time. The rest of the time, there are plenty of unoccupied sites to pick from. And the variety of traveling RV'ers means that there are likely few opportunities for "cookie cutter" parks developed from a master plan of some sort. Every location is unique, yet every location needs something that attracts guests both initially and repeatedly. A park near an Interstate exit for example may be perfect for overnighters en-route to a destination, but not likely to attract families on a 2-week vacation. Darrell mentioned entertaining your guests, but that's very much tied to the clientele your park is designed to attract. The overnight park I mentioned for instance, needs very little in the way of entertainment, while a destination park may need a wide variety of features to attract a variety of guests.

Oh, and I'm well aware that Elon Musk isn't the only LEO Internet developer, but I believe he has the best chance of being successful at a cost that will make the service very affordable worldwide. None of the others have their own delivery system ready and waiting.

 

I guess my first question would be where you have found developers itching to build RV parks, lacking only a construction plan? As a general rule, RV Parks are very undesirable to build starting with permitting issues and costs, and local opposition. Desirable locations are expensive and when you are talking about the acreage necessary for an RV park, there is usually a higher use for that tract of land. And if you decide to build one, you better have deep pockets, because you aren't going to find a lending institution that is going to finance construction of a new park for an operator who doesn't have industry experience.
Even when built, they are very hard to quickly advertise and fill. Unlike franchised hotels that have instant name recognition, unless you can find a location without a KOA (doubt any exist in a hot market) you are going to have to build clientele over time. That means cash flow stays negative for several years.
As for what people want, other than clean restrooms and solid utilities, what is Nirvana for some people is Dante's Inferno for someone else. Trees, concrete pads, paved roads, pools, cabins, playgrounds, grassy sites, lighting and every other possible amenity is loved or hated by a segment of the Market. You may also want to note that the other main theme mentioned so far is low cost, not exactly the sweet spot for building a profitable business.
Building a park is pretty straight forward. I find it hard to believe that there is a secret formula to suddenly cut construction costs. I think you would find that the reason most parks are build in a less than efficient fashion is the fact that the owners don't have the funds to build everything at once. They have to build and expand piecemeal.
As technology making things like Cable TV and Wifi obsolete, you are going to find the RV population as a whole are not early adopters. If you want a park with customer service issues, have one without television service or Wifi. That will keep your office full of unhappy people.

 

I thought I would try to take a little different approach to this, so I am going to offer some ideas that have more to do with the actual construction or layout of the park rather than the managing of the park. And I should let you know that we have a 37' motorhome and tow a Jeep, and we prefer the pretty stereotypical RV park rather than a campground out in the wilderness. Therefore, anything I say will be from that point of view, but hopefully it will apply to other types of RVs and facilities as well.

1. I know you can't control the street outside your park, but if at all possible have a separate turning lane that RVs can pull into when approaching your entrance.

2. Have a driveway long enough to allow RVs to get completely off the street before having to stop for registration.

3. Have enough parking for several RVs arriving at the same time. RVers tend to arrive all at once even if we are not traveling together.

4. Locate your office near the front of the park, and have it well marked along with where to park your RV for registering. If the office is not at the front, be sure to have lots of signage showing how to get to it.

5. Roads should be wide (enough for two RV to pass in opposite directions even if the road is supposed to be one way). Roads should be well maintained. An RV going slow over potholes will really rock and roll, and that’s not good.

6. Be sure that all power lines and tree branches are high enough (and then some) for RVs to go under. Trees and brush should not be planted close to the roads or should be trimmed regularly.

7. Layout the sites and number them logically. Be sure the site number is prominently displayed on the site.

8. The sites should be at an angle to the street so that the turn into them is not at a right angle. If RVs are parked in rows, we prefer that they all face the same direction, but that is not a deal breaker.

9. Consider the direction of the sun when planning which direction sites will face. Lots of RVers like to sit outside in the late afternoon and want to be out of the hot sun in the shade of their RV.

10. I’m not exactly sure how to explain this next point, but the ends of the site should be flared out wider (especially if the sites are concrete) so that as you turn in or out, your wheels do not run outside the site. I think most RVers will know what I am talking about, so if anyone can explain this better, please do so.

11. The ends of sites should not have curbs or street gutters to drive over. Think rock and roll again.

12. Do not place site markers, poles, trees, rocks or anything else at the entrance or exit of sites unless you have lots of insurance for replacing them and fixing damaged coaches.

13. Regardless of the surface material, sites must level, level, level.

14. There should be sites that will hold the RV and tow or towed vehicle without having to unhook. Sites that are only long enough to hold the RV must then have parking on the side to park the tow or towed vehicle. Parking should be available for extra vehicles including tow dollies, enclosed trailers, boats, etc. Some RVers travel with these items and need a place to park them when staying at a park.

15. Everyone wants the utilities to be conveniently placed, but the location has a lot to do with the type of RV you have. For example, with our MH and Jeep, we have to pull to the front of a pull through site in order to get the Jeep off the road. This puts our utility bay more toward the middle of the site, so if utilities are at the far back of the site they are not convenient for us. However, a fifth wheel or travel trailer will park on the same site with their towing vehicle up at the front of the site leaving the RV at the back making utilities placed at the back very convenient. Unless you design sites that are for a specific type of RV, I’m not sure there is a good solution to this except maybe installing two sets of utilities which we have seen in several parks.

16. Patio placement has the same problem. What may be a convenient placement for one type of RV will not be convenient for another type, but having a patio with a picnic table anywhere on the site is nice. Many RVers also appreciate having a grill.

17. Provide some type of lighting in the utility area; be sure the sewer opening is downhill from the parking pad and easy to connect to; and raise the water faucet above ground so that a hose can be hooked on easily. The sewer connection and the fresh water faucet should not be close together, but I don’t know if there is a requirement of how many feet they must be apart. More can be said about utilities, but that’s all I’ll go into now.

18. When planting trees or other plants on the sites keep in mind that most RVs these days have slides that could extend out past the parking pad. Plants grow, so do not plant them close to the parking pad. Consider the direction of the sun and plant trees that will shade the vehicle or patio.

19. We prefer bath houses that have home style facilities: shower, toilet, and sink all in one individual room designated for male or female use with a lockable door. There should also be plenty of hooks for clothes and a bench and a dressing area that does not get wet from the shower. Above all else the bathrooms must be sparkling clean and checked several times a day to insure this.

20. All parks should have some protected areas in case of storms, but if the park will be in a high-risk tornado area, an actual underground storm shelter should be considered.

I feel like I've only scratched the surface, but I hope this helps.

 

To Texasrvers above post I will simply say "WELL SAID"...... Kudos and 10 Gold Stars......!!!

BankShot............(aka Terry)

 

There seems to be an increasing tendency in parks to prevent RVers from damaging grass by locating large boulders at strategic locations where RVs might "cut corners" while turning. Let me say in the strongest possible terms that this is a very customer-unfriendly approach IMO. I'll gladly pay you a few $$ for your grass to avoid damaging my MH.

What was worse was one park in the Pacific NW that had installed a heavy metal stake at the exit our our pull-through in a position that we simply couldn't avoid when leaving. Suffice it to say that after we left the stake was no longer in position.

As good overall as this list is, IMO this is a much lower priority item than the others. We have big windows on both sides and the front of our MH. There's no reason why I should expect a park owner to provide shade for my convenience and if he does provide shade and orientation for me, how can he assure that it will be appropriate for a totally different type of RV?

Although most parks do provide bath facilities, there are some that don't because there are plenty of RVers who don't use them. You might even want to consider designating a portion of a park as "self contained RV's only". This may be a more viable option if your park is "adults only." JMO

 

A good list by Texasrvers, but I think a rebuttal to a few points are needed.
The first 10 are fine if they can be done in a practical manner. I will point out that turn lanes on roads are the government's concern and you won't get one built just by asking.
If you have paved roads with gutters, you really can't just not have them at every site. Gutters are to channel water away, and without them, you possibly will have a flooded site or yard with every rain.
I agree that barriers at the entrance and exit to sites are inconvenient, however they are sometimes necessary. People have and will drive across the middle of a site, spinning foot deep ruts thinking it is somehow easier than just following the road. They are a necessary evil at times. And if you hit a fixed object with your rig, that is on you, my insurance isn't going to pay.
Level is subjective to some degree. Sites must be slightly sloped or crowned to drain. Concrete a little bit, gravel a bit more since the surface is always changing with use. What is level at the beginning of the year may be less than level by the end. Sorry, but that is the nature of the beast.
Not every park has unlimited space available to build 100+ foot long sites and parking lots for all the potential toys. We certainly do not, and we will tell you upfront. Sometimes we just turn down a reservation request because we cannot accommodate you. Please don't call us all the four letter words if you are a semi towing a 40 foot fifth wheel with you 35 foot cabin cruiser behind it and your wife is following you with your suburban towing your motorcycles in a 30 foot enclosed trailer and we say we can't accommodate your reservation request.
Two sets or utilities are a good idea until you get to the pesky electrical codes. Telling the inspector that only one of the two sets will be in use at any one time isn't going to cut it. You would have to double the incoming power to the park to put two services at each site. Plus ever time you put additional hookups in a site you have additional things for people to run over, for groundskeeping to mow and trim around costing time and money. Add that to the additional costs and you are tacking a couple of extra bucks onto the site price with no real benefit that guests are readily willing to pay for or that can be advertised.
Lighting is always a trade off, the more lights, the more some people like it and the more some people complain. It's a moving needle that can never be thread.
We have grills at our cabins. They are a full time job and people abuse them. They leave them burning 24/7 using up the propane tank in a day. We have had people decide they also make great fire pits so they burn wood in them. And the greasy messes left behind can be beyond belief. Couldn't imagine expanding this to all the sites.
Private bath rooms are nice for some guests but can be a big problem for parks. Believe it or not, the Men's and Women's configuration are much more efficient. People will spend much less time in them, making turnover for the next users much faster. Also, people will do things in a private bath they wouldn't consider doing in the public rooms. Washing dogs, washing their dishes in the sink and doing the nasty all come to mind.
It is a great list, but sometimes the view of the guest differs from what the park sees.

 

On the subject of bathrooms, in the past we've traveled with my wife's handicapped sister and our then handicapped granddaughter, and now as we've gotten older and have our own health issues, and we've found parks that provide one or more "family" bathrooms that are not gender specific and can comfortably accommodate at least two people to be very much appreciated. So far, state parks seem to be the ones most likely to have the facilities that cater to folks in our situation more so than private parks. Probably a bit surprisingly, we've usually found the family facilities to be the cleanest as well.

I agree with WRVPO on the electrical hookup duplication, but one area that can be duplicated at little additional cost per site is the sewer hookup. Extending the line far enough along the side of the site to accommodate two or three connection points can make hooking up much more convenient for a variety of RV plumbing layouts. Reaching water and power is usually much easier than a long sewer hose run.

 

Thanks for your input.

Actually, I've been a contractor for almost 20 years and I've been in the construction industry for almost 30 years. I know where the money is in a construction project and I know how to cut out and reduce costs. In my past, I've shown engineers who work for some of the top companies in the world how they were overpaying 35-40%.

I understand there is a problem with getting permitting and with the RV parks being undesirable to the communities that are located near them.

Since I have been in the industrial and commercial construction space, I understand how to talk to the powers that be and the influential citizens as well as the average person to "sell" them that an RV park will benefit their community.

You just have to know how to speak their language. I have resources at architectural development firms who will help me not only design the parks, but to get the towns/communities to welcome them with open arms.

Its all in how you position it.

Regarding promotion of the parks and filling them...I was mentored by a master mergers & acquisitions guy who taught me the secret to quickly filling up a business that you recently purchased with little or no advertising. He called it SMARIC.

He used this technique to acquire a failing hospital and fill it with patients in less than 60 days. He then replicated this over and over again. This same approach will work with RV parks.

I will have a built in market ready and anxious to fill the parks up. What's even better is the parks will be completely paid for so the cost for a site can remain low.

That's all I can say for now. Don't want to let the cat out of the bag just yet. This is a proprietary method that will give all parks we build a competitive advantage.

I wanted to ask experienced RVers like you to tell me the amenities that are most important to them.

I understand that every RVer is different, but believe we will be able to get a core list of amenities that are important to 80% of the RVers and we will work on providing other amenities to the remaining 20%.

I recognize that there is no way to make everyone 100% happy, but we have to start somewhere and I think that asking the very people stay in RV parks is the best place to get guidance.

 

Wow!!!

This is EXACTLY the type of guidance and input that I wanted to hear.

I'll bet that no other RV park developer or business person has ever asked this question.

You have really thought out what you like and don't like and how to make the RV park very friendly to RVers.

TRULY AMAZING!!!

You can bet that once we get started creating a masterplan your list of dos and don'ts will be part of the package and will be incorporated into the design.

Any other insight you have would be very much appreciated.

is there a chance that you'd be willing to be a part of a design committee (paid of course and remote of course) when this thing gets going?