This is my first post here in a few years, but I felt I had to do it. A couple of years ago, due to health problems, we "retired" from camping, and had to find an alternative. Don't get me wrong. We loved RVing, and wish we could have continued it. But, when we "retired," we still wanted to travel, so we had to come up with an alternative. Our alternative was to find vacation rental spots, rent them in the "shoulder" season (just when rates are changing due to demand), and rent for one-month periods. What motivated this post is the discussion about campgrounds charging $40, $50, and even $60 a night. Here is our experience over the past 18 months. We rented a beautiful waterfront two-bedroom condo with a gorgeous kitchen, beautiful furniture, giant screen tv, and all the bells and whistles in Key West for an average of $45 per night. We stayed in a penthouse two-bedroom unit with everything you could possibly want, on the 18th floor, overlooking the ocean, for an average of $40 per night in Crescent Beach, SC. We rented an absolutely gorgeous gulf front condo in Pensacola Beach, Florida, with unbelievable furnishings and a view to die for, all for an average of $50 per night. We stayed at a knockout oceanfront unit in Madeira Beach, FL. with everything you could want (two bedrooms, giant tv, etc. etc.), for an average of $50 per night. We rented a new four-bedroom mountain "cottage" with a fireplace, giant tv, beautiful views, and even a pool table, in Franklin, NC, for an average of $40 per night. We leased a four-bedroom mountaintop home with over 3,000 square feet and every conceivable amenity in Waynesville, NC, for an average of only $85 per night (the highest we have ever paid). We rented a beautiful gulf front condo in Panama City, FL., with beautiful furnishings, a kitchen to die for, marble tiled bathrooms, and so forth, for only an average of $40 per night. And we stayed in a magnificent high rise oceanfront condo with everything you could possibly want for only an average of $45 per night in Navarre Beach, FL. (We have stayed at an RV park there for $60 per night.) I point these facts out not only to advise that there is life after RVing, and at modest costs, but also to note that we don't pay any diesel fuel costs, maintenance costs, initial RV investment, parking fees, wi-fi fees, or any other costs. RV Park owners better wake up look at their charges in light of the alternatives. And, again, make no mistake. We still would love to be RVing. But are so pleased we have found an alternative, and have done so much, much less expensively than the RV lifestyle!
Surely you are not renting penthouses on the beach for $50.00 per night on a nightly rental. Can't compare weekly, monthly , seasonal and yearly rents with daily rentals. I leased my 5 bedroom 4500 sq. ft custom home with pool on 3 acres in Dallas for $3000.00 per month on a year's lease. Wouldn't consider taking $100 a night or $700 for a week. Wouldn't take $3000 for a month. It is all about the length of stay.
KCMOEDOE: If you reread my post you will note that we said that we rented these places on a monthly basis!
Beastdriver.....you didn't state what those units would have cost on a daily rental basis. $100, $200, $300 per night? You can rent one of my sites for a daily rate of $35, but if you want to stay the month, like you did, it comes to $11.75 per day. That, too, is a real value.
Hi Beastdriver, I'm glad you found a life style that suits you. However, not all campgrounds are "that expensive". Follow this link to see what I mean. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?layer=&...p;hl=en&z=6
Beastdriver: I applaud you for your post and I think it speaks clearly to a growing problem in the RV lifestyle........namely, continual and unwarranted escalation of nightly site fees. There are parks about 8 miles from my home here on the Maine coast that are charging in excess of $90 per night; while nearby motels and B n B's are at the same time offering nightly accomodations for $30 to $50 less. I guess as long as RV people continue to pay outrageous prices, they will continue to exist. But we will no longer pay anything at $40 or above for a site, even if it means extra driving time.......not when I am hauling my own home with me.
QUOTE(MaineDon @ May 28 2010, 08:29 PM) [snapback]22294[/snapback] Beastdriver: I applaud you for your post and I think it speaks clearly to a growing problem in the RV lifestyle........namely, continual and unwarranted escalation of nightly site fees. There are parks about 8 miles from my home here on the Maine coast that are charging in excess of $90 per night; while nearby motels and B n B's are at the same time offering nightly accomodations for $30 to $50 less. I guess as long as RV people continue to pay outrageous prices, they will continue to exist. But we will no longer pay anything at $40 or above for a site, even if it means extra driving time.......not when I am hauling my own home with me. What type of occupancy do those RV parks have? If they are empty, I suspect they will soon be gone or forced to lower their prices. If they are full, why would they lower their prices and if they sell out how can the price be considered outrageous? I consider my site rental fees to be renting real estate. Ocean front real estate is expensive and I fully expect to pay a high rental fee.
I cannot imagine paying $50 up a night for a space. When we travel we plan our trip using Passport America and this site for our places to stay. I don't think I have ever payed more than $40 in the seven years we have been fulltiming. Last summer we were in Pagosa Springs CO and payed $275 a mo and that included electric.
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ May 28 2010, 10:48 AM) [snapback]22288[/snapback] KCMOEDOE: If you reread my post you will note that we said that we rented these places on a monthly basis! I guess I worded my response incorrectly. I see that you travel off season and stay for a month at a time. However, when people complain or comment about the high costs of RV sites, they are usually talking about daily rental fees in high seasons. You pay around 1200 to 1500 per month for your rentals. I am sure I can rent an RV site for a month during the shoulder season at a nice park for half that amount. You like the nice furnishings, linens and the like provided and, I like sleeping in my own bed and having my own things. Different strokes for different folks.
The only problem is that when you look out the window, you are at the same place (except for the lady in the thong bikini).
Why would you compare a monthly rental rate on a condo in a shoulder season, vs. a nightly rate in peak season at an RV resort and think you're getting some great deal on a condo and that the RV park is overpriced? I highly doubt any RV park's monthly rate turns out to be $50-$60 a night in the shoulder season - that would be $1500-$1800 a month. If you're paying $40-$50 a night for a condo for a month in the shoulder season, an RV resort is probably $20 a night in peak season and closer to $15 a night in a shoulder season. Your apples to oranges comparison is pretty unfair. And the reality is, there are 5 RV's on the road for every one spot to park them in. Every year, more and more RV parks close - usually converted to condos. On the other hand every year more and more RV's hit the road. More demand for sites, less supply = higher rates. As an RV park owner myself, I'm sure you have no idea what the operating costs for a nice RV resort run. Every year, the operating costs go up for nearly all of us: landscaping, cable TV, advertising & marketing (TrailerLife & Wooddall's make a KILLING on us), wages & salaries, etc. Transversely, the majority of state-run campgrounds are withering at the bone. They may be cheaper alternatives for RV'ers, but they are not profitable and most need to be subsidized with taxpayer money. Look at California almost closing a ton of campgrounds. I can tell you that any privately owned RV park that charges less than $30/night may be a good deal for the customer, but the property is probably not very profitable and not stocking much in capital reserves for future upgrades & maintenance to improve themselves. RVing & camping are ingrained in American culture - you may complain about high rates at some places but others are willing to pay it, otherwise they'd be out of business. I always get a kick out of people who pay $40,000+ for a 5th wheel, or $200,000+ for a motorhome and then complain about minimal rate increases and brag about all the Walmarts they stay at for free.
Folks, you make some good points but the bottom line is that facts are facts, and I stand my ground on my assertion that RV parks are overpricing themselves. I will give you a few examples and these are in places which I actually listed in my previous post, not specially selected ones. We stayed in Navarre Beach, Florida, just across from Emerald Beach RV Park (you can see the park from the condo). The cost of a waterfront space in this park, for one month during the same time period we stayed in the condo, was $47.14 daily. (The park will not rent these spaces for one month but only on a weekly basis.) Using the weekly basis, and extrapolating it for a full month, the cost comes to $47.14 daily, plus wi-fi charges. We have stayed there and, as I remember, the internet charge averaged about $2.00 per day, making the total cost $49.14. We paid $45.00 per night average for the condo, which included too many amenities to list, gulf front, two bedrooms, giant tv, and a host of other features. Wi-fi was free as was television. We stayed in Crescent Beach, SC, only a mile from Briarcliff RV Park, which is NOT on the ocean. Briarcliff charges $45.00 per night for the same dates we stayed there, plus a daily electric rate of $1.00 per day, which increases the monthly rate to $52.00, plus they charge extra if the site has a phone. We stayed in an 18th floor penthouse right on the ocean, again with amenties too numerous to list. We had free wi-fi, two bedrooms, a huge tv, and a host of other features. We stayed in the mountains of North Carolina, in a gorgeous three bedroom new log cabin, with hot tub, giant tv, free wi-fi, and all the amenities, for a month for an average of $40.00 per night for one month. The nearest comparable campground with this type of view is Campfire Lodgings near Asheville, and we have stayed there. The cost here, during the same period we stayed, is $55 per night, on an extrapolated basis since they won't price these sites for a month, but only a week. In addition, we had two guests with us, making a total of four people. Had we stayed at this comparable campground, we would have had to pay $4.00 extra per person, bringing the total cost to $63 per night. Finally, we stayed in a gorgeous oceanfront condo in Panama City Beach, FL, for $40.00 per night, with a large TV, all channels, and wi-fi included. It had two bedrooms and every other feature you can imagine. The nearest campground, and it is NOT on the beach, is Emerald Coast RV Resort. The costs there for same time period we stayed was, on a monthly basis, $42.00 per day, plus $3.50 per person over two (we had two guests), plus 66 cents per day, on a monthly basis, for wi fi, bringing the total daily cost to $49.66 per day. These are not isolated incidents, and I reaffirm my statement that RV parks need to be mindful of just how high many of them are getting in terms of costs, fees, and charges. Finally, as I said twice in my earlier post, I am NOT knocking RV travel. We loved it and wish we could have continued. But, again, facts are facts!
I just noticed that I left off how much we paid in Crescent Beach, SC, a total of $40 per night while Briarcliff was charging $52. Sorry. And we didn't have to bring our home with us!
Well higher costs at RV parks won't change, hate to say it. It's a fact that more RV parks disappear every year than are being built. It's a fact that more & more RV's hit the road every year. More demand, less supply = higher prices. It's capitalism, it's what this country is built upon. Hotels & condos pricing will fluctuate wildly with the economy. Right now the economy stinks, so hotels are slashing their prices. I stayed at a boutique hotel in 2006 that was $249 a night on a weekend in July. I can book the same room, same weekend for $79 right now because there's very little demand out there. Demand for nicer RV parks, and quality RV parks with ideal locations (particularly waterfront) will not go down because there are so few of them out there. If an RV park is full in peak season for 3 straight years and are constantly turning away customers, why wouldn't they charge a higher rate? It's a business like any other. Those here who can't fathom paying over $40 a night for an RV site, enjoy it while you can because I can assure you those days are numbered. As operational costs for RV park owners continue to rise, the parks priced at $20-$30 a night will get run into the ground as they can't afford to improve their property and will eventually lose many of their customers because of the park's condition ... eventually they will be prime candidates to sell the land and shut their doors. Here's a recent article from Wooddall's: Similar to what many of us are experiencing at home, campground owners are being confronted with the higher cost of garbage disposal, electricity, water, employee benefits and property taxes. Changes in Health Department regulations regarding sewage treatment have more than quadrupled the cost of new septic systems for rural campgrounds. Skyrocketing increases imposed by municipalities for sewage treatment have become a major expense issue for suburban campgrounds. One of our favorite private campgrounds has kept there camping rate for a full hook-up RV site unchanged since 2005. The cost is $35.00 per night for two adults. For that $35.00 we are provided with a 50 amp electrical connection, water, sewage disposal and twice daily trash pick-up. Additionally, we have use of the campground entertainment facilities, including a nice swimming pool, game room, clubhouse, heated and air conditioned bath houses, organized recreational activities for the kids, and access to bike and hiking trails. When you stop to think about it, the cost is really low for all the amenities included. The owner has told me he must raise the camping fee this year to cover his rising expenses. Yet, he is afraid that the fee increase will keep campers away or shorten their visit. Using his own words: He feels like he is “between a rock and a hard place” but he has no choice as he is no longer making a profit. [/i] http://blog.woodalls.com/2010/04/the-campi...-the-recession/[/url]
QUOTE(Beastdriver @ May 30 2010, 12:42 PM) [snapback]22320[/snapback] I just noticed that I left off how much we paid in Crescent Beach, SC, a total of $40 per night while Briarcliff was charging $52. Sorry. And we didn't have to bring our home with us! Crescent Beach is actually North Myrtle Beach and has been for quite a few years now. Calling it Crescent Beach will confuse anyone that is trying to find a campground in that area.
QUOTE It's a fact that more & more RV's hit the road every year. [SIZE=12pt]That has not been my experience. I see many dealers going under and many, many people cutting way back on their travel due to gasoline prices and uncertaintany about things on the horizon like large fuel price increases and taxes as well as cap and trade. My survey is totally unscientific. We usually try to remark on RV's going the other way when we are on the road and wee see a big reduction. During the last 2 90 day trips we have taken not stayed in a single full RV park and we have heard other owners say that the occupancy rate is down even with less competition. We are also big users of the half price camping clubs and frequently bookdock. many campers (like myself) rarely use the amenities of an RV Park. We are self contained and use the electric at each park, we hook up to water and sewage 1 out of 4 or 5 days. When we are ready to stop at 7PM for 10 hours of down time and m choices are paying $40 at a campground I will hardly use or staying a Wal-Mart where I can usually walk to dining, gas up, and shop at no extra charges, the decision is pretty easy and I believe that there are a lot of other campers who feel the same way. Campgrounds are not a destination to use, they are a place to park while we continue our adventure.[/SIZE]
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ May 30 2010, 08:53 PM) [snapback]22326[/snapback] [SIZE=12pt]That has not been my experience. I see many dealers going under and many, many people cutting way back on their travel due to gasoline prices and uncertaintany about things on the horizon like large fuel price increases and taxes as well as cap and trade. My survey is totally unscientific. We usually try to remark on RV's going the other way when we are on the road and wee see a big reduction. During the last 2 90 day trips we have taken not stayed in a single full RV park and we have heard other owners say that the occupancy rate is down even with less competition. We are also big users of the half price camping clubs and frequently bookdock. many campers (like myself) rarely use the amenities of an RV Park. We are self contained and use the electric at each park, we hook up to water and sewage 1 out of 4 or 5 days. When we are ready to stop at 7PM for 10 hours of down time and m choices are paying $40 at a campground I will hardly use or staying a Wal-Mart where I can usually walk to dining, gas up, and shop at no extra charges, the decision is pretty easy and I believe that there are a lot of other campers who feel the same way. Campgrounds are not a destination to use, they are a place to park while we continue our adventure.[/SIZE] Well I know for a fact that the vast majority of manufacturers have bounced back as I work with over 40 dealerships nationwide. Some manufacturers went bankrupt, were bought by new ownership and workers have been re-hired, other ones shut their doors permanently. Nearly every single dealership I know is up at least 30% of where they were at this time last year. As for gas prices, not sure where you live but prices are a LOT lower than in 2007-2008 when gas hit $4 a gallon. Right now in central MN unleaded is $2.56/gallon, the lowest it's been since 2006. Even when gas was at $4 a gallon, people were still RV'ing. What changed was their habits - instead of taking longer trips, they took shorter trips more often. The general rule was if a customer can reach your RV park from their home on a tank of fuel or less, they will come. My RV parks market towards the higher-end RV's, and someone who pays $250,000+ for a motorhome isn't going to leave it in the garage all summer just because gas is $3-$4 a gallon. Now the pop-ups & tent trailer RV'ers might be more affected by fuel prices - ditto the RV parks that rely on that niche of business. My company sits on the Business Forum for ARVC, so we get a lot of interesting marketing data about the entire industry. RV'ing and camping is a foundation of American life - the types of RV's and the habits of RV'ers may evolve and change ... but the demand for camping & RV parks is here to stay, particularly for nicer campgrounds in resort destination areas.
Gaines against last year are not helpful as last year was horrific. The sales of RV’s are down significantly against pre recession levels. I went on a 9,200 mile trip during the highest of the gas prices. I am filling up today at $2.65/gal. The gas price vs. travel is a mental thing when people subconsciously cut back. I have heard this from Prevost to popup owners. When thinking of taking a trip that might be 60 40, the gas prices can tip the scale back. Anyone keeping up with politics and the energy policies in Washington knows that prices will be going up drastically. Fleet averages have been mandated now to 35 mpg by 2016. Many in Washington think conservation can be achieved through higher energy taxes and prices. I don’t know what the industry average is for occupancy rates, but I do think it is down even worth less sites available.
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ May 31 2010, 10:52 AM) [snapback]22331[/snapback] Gaines against last year are not helpful as last year was horrific. The sales of RV’s are down significantly against pre recession levels. I went on a 9,200 mile trip during the highest of the gas prices. I am filling up today at $2.65/gal. The gas price vs. travel is a mental thing when people subconsciously cut back. I have heard this from Prevost to popup owners. When thinking of taking a trip that might be 60 40, the gas prices can tip the scale back. Anyone keeping up with politics and the energy policies in Washington knows that prices will be going up drastically. Fleet averages have been mandated now to 35 mpg by 2016. Many in Washington think conservation can be achieved through higher energy taxes and prices. I don’t know what the industry average is for occupancy rates, but I do think it is down even worth less sites available. True, but you are also talking about a 10-year span of record-breaking sales from 1996 to 2006. The industry exploded during that time, became over-saturated, and when the economy went south the weak ones went under. We are still not out of the woods as far as the economy goes, but just because manufacturers and dealers aren't selling as many units in 2010 as they did in 2003-2006, doesn't mean they are doing poorly. And again - even if nobody in the USA sold another RV for 2010 - there are still 5 RV's on the road for every one spot to park them in, and every year that number increases as the number of RV parks close vs. the number of new RV's hitting the road. And while you may have spoken to a few RV'ers from Prevost to pop-ups, I look at the numbers of my parks in 10 states. I look at the national numbers from ARVC and have access to a lot more marketing data. The DOW is above 10,000 and the baby-boomers are exiting the job market and going into retirement in massive numbers - further boosting the RV market as well as demand for nicer campgrounds. So again, while some people may not be taking longer trips, they are still using their RV's to make more frequent trips within 200 miles of home. Anyone driving a Prevost certainly can afford fuel for a 200 mile trip whether it's $2.65 or $3.65 a gallon. The demand for quality RV sites has definitely not tapered off, and it will not go down in the next 10 years as more & more baby-boomers retire and hit the road in their RV's. What you will see are more & more state campgrounds close as states continue to slash budgets (CA, NY, and MI to name a few), because state-run campgrounds are not profitable at the rates they charge and rely heavily on your tax dollars to stay afloat ... and as more of them close, it will only further drive demand for sites at private campgrounds. I'm just saying - the days of $20-$30 nightly rates at campgrounds are numbered with the dramatic increase of operating costs/fees/permits coupled with the increasing demand of more RV'ers hitting the road. Like everything else in the last 30 years - whether it's milk, gas, or a hamburger - prices for rv parks are going to go up, not down.
"True, but you are also talking about a 10-year span of record-breaking sales from 1996 to 2006. The industry exploded during that time, became over-saturated, and when the economy went south the weak ones went under. We are still not out of the woods as far as the economy goes, but just because manufacturers and dealers aren't selling as many units in 2010 as they did in 2003-2006, doesn't mean they are doing poorly." I was working for a OEM supplier in the early 70's when the RV industry went through the same thing. Then it was the gas shortage. It then weeded out the small manufacturers ( some that were good ) and the weak dealers. The ones that had been around and gave good service survived.
