Recently, a review on the KOA South in Pueblo, Colorado, was submitted in the RV Park Reviews section of this site. This review was extremely critical of this park. Having stayed at this park several times and knowing that it is a quality park, I e-mailed the owners and asked them to look at this review on RVParkReviews. They were appalled, and wrote me back immediately. Just as those of us who are members of this site have an obligation to be fair and honest in our reviews, we likewise have an obligation to point out when someone is maliciously trashing a good park as is the case here. I have no connection with this park whatsoever, but I do know that we have to do something that stops people from attacking topnotch parks for false reasons. The response from the campground owners is printed verbatim below. We at least owe them this much in an attempt to offset the damage done by some jerk: "Thank you so very much for bringing this post to our attention. You are right, this can cause people to form a wrong opinion of us. Unfortunately, as campground owners, we are not usually allowed to go in and say anything. I would appreciate whatever you can do to help clarify the situation to the others out there reading this chatboard. I don't expect you to put everything in that you will see below, but I will address each issue and you can pick and choose. I think the first thing that needs to be pointed out was that these people were monthly, not nightly, and they did not pay $35.00/night but instead $13.00/night with free cable tv. I am sorry this is so lengthy, but not sure how else to let you know exactly what went on. We are not by any means perfect, but I don't think we were as bad as they made us out to be. For example; everytime we used a credit card, about their transaction costs and even charged us extra on the checkout for their costs of KOA forced transaction fees (so we were told). We never charged them extra to use their DEBIT card, what we charged extra for was their electric charges. We are set up so that electric charges are made payable to San Isabel Electric. They did not have a check or the cash to pay their bill, so they wanted to put it on their credit card. I explained to him that we only charge the exact amount of electric they use each month. For us to put this charge, which was over $150, on a debit card would cost us about $5.00 to pay his bill for him. He agreed he would pay the fee. We also do not accept credit or debit cards for monthly rent as this costs us about $15.00, so we ask our monthly people to pay by check or cash. He must have felt I was complaining when this was explained to him. Ownership complained about dirt getting tracked into their showers even though there were no mats to wipe feet on and their area was covered in melting snow and mud. (these were added after someone almost fell on the slick tile inside the door) First of all, there is a mat as you enter the restrooms where one can clean their feet. These people were building a house in an undeveloped area and had horses there they needed to tend to each day. Every night they would come in covered with mud. The wife indicated to me one day that when they stepped out of their truck, they would sink to their ankles, that's how muddy it was at their place. When they would come in, they would not even try to wipe the mud off by stepping in the snow or taking their shoes off before coming inside. They even had mud on the tops of their shoes which would fall off onto the floor as they walked. They always returned each night about the time we were closing. Everything was cleaned up and ready to go for the next eay. Every other night, they would need to do laundry. We always allowed them to be in the laundry after hours. After they would leave, we would have to later return to the office to clean the mud off the floors and the dirt and horsehair out of the washers and dryers so that it would be ready for whoever needed it the next morning. We would also check the restrooms as they would go in there to shower, and they too always needed re-cleaning. The mat I put in the restrooms was not because someone almost fell but because I felt the floor was slick when anyone entered with wet shoes and was trying to avoid someone falling. We had 5' of snow here, which naturally caused a lot of water and eventually mud. Theses people were the only ones who seemed to complain, everyone else realized that this was beyond our control (mother nature has the upper hand) and there was nothing more we could do to make things better. We kept people plowed out of the snow as best we could, but there was not much we could do about the mud. Ownership tried to overcharge us on propane fill up by .59 cents per gallon and then complained when they got called on it (yep they had to pay those transaction fees again). After these people left here and moved out to their property, they came back the next day for propane. I naturally charged them the regular rate as they were no longer staying here at the park. She charged the amount, with no additional charges for using their debit card, and he came back in to complain. .59 cents is our regular rate--we discount our propane to our monthly renters. I explained this to him, and he argued that they still had one day left on their rent when they left so they should still get the rate even though they were not here. (The extra day's rate of $13.00 was just enough to pay for the electric they used that night after we read their meter, but we said nothing to them.) I agreed to give them the propane this one more time at the reduced rate, but I did not charge them any fee to use their credit card as, unlike the electricity, this was a regular transaction not us paying their bills for them. Cable picture and electricity amperage were of poor quality (and water for some campers was improperly buried above freeze line causing many folks to have to move spaces). They are the only ones who complained about the cable. Problem was the snow had accumulated on their cord and he had not cleaned it off, so it broke the cable line causing it to not work properly. The people who are now occupying that same site have had no problems whateversoever. Our water lines were put in when the place was built about 30 years ago. We did not put in any lines above the freeze line. We have had a very cold winter here and even our heat tapes were not keeping up with some sites that were not occupied on a regular basis. These people were not in one of those sites, but always had water as this section was full and there was a constant pull on the water keeping the lines moving. We have been here for 11 years, and this is the first time we have had a water freeze up in our overnight section, and never have we had one in the section he was living in, so I'm sure why he is complaining about this. His trailer was not the type made to camp in the cold weather we were having. His trailer, not our water, froze up several times, and my husband always provided him what he needed to take care of his problem. Electric amperage was being maxed out because he was attempting to keep his trailer warm with electric heaters plus whatever he was running in his trailer on a normal basis. This was a 30/50 amp site, but he only had a 30 amp plug on his trailer which was causing him to max out the 30 amps he was using. An average trailer uses less than $3.00/day electric, he was using $5.60/day! Laundry was the most expensive average per load of any KOA we have been to yet at almost $4 a load washed and dried. Our laundry prices are $1.25 to wash and 25 cents/8 minutes to dry. If you need an additional 8 mintues, you can add only one more quarter versus the full amount most places are now charging. (most campground, as was indicated at one of our last meetings, have now gone up $1.50-$1.75 to wash and $1.00 to dry for 20 minutes. If you need an additional few minutes, it still costs $1.00.) AND, we didn't charge them a clean-up the area and washers fee!!! Well, there is the story. Hope you are not sleeping by now from boredom. I do appreciate that you care enough to point this out to us." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tried to correct this malicious attack on the RV Park Reviews listing but, apparently, the Webmaster does not allow this, so I am making these comments in the discussion section. I don't know how we can stop this from happening other than trying to correct it each time we see such a review, but I would be most interested in hearing suggestions from others.
I'm not sure that there is a way to stop this. In this case you where familar with the park. Imagine how often this happens when there is no one to defend the park. An isolated post will not stop me from staying at a park.
After reading Beastmaster's post I just had to read the review he called malicious. Then I had to read the post again and the review again. I immediately thought of some of the comments in the "Review Comments" string extolling the virtues of letting reviewers express their opinions and let us know what their experience was at a park. To me, that seemed to be what the reviewer was doing. Maybe the reviewer was an unreasonable customer, maybe there was a lot of miscommunication, maybe they exagerated some of the problems, or maybe he(she) was a jerk. The reviewer was giving an opinion and relating their experience. I hardly found the review to be malicious. I have seen a lot more scathing comments in many reviews. The reviewer gave the park a 6 and said it was OK for a night. I took more than a little heat in the "Review Comments' string for suggesting that some reviewers use some strange criteria for rating a park low (bad weather) or high (free coffee). Now you want to ban negative reviews for parks you like. Jerry S.
Beastdriver - thanks for calling this to our attention. Hopefully, people reading the reviews of this park would question why, in this reviewers opinion, the management is less than acceptable but the majority of the other reviews mention the helpfulness and quality of that same management. Just goes to show that we need to expound on the good qualities we find in a park so others can weigh all the reviews, and weed out what may be sour grapes. I will be more mindful to entail the good points of establishments in my review comments from this point forward.
Jerry: For those of you who don't know my credentials, seven years camping in tents, 25+years camping in travel trailers and fifth wheelers, and 11+years camping in a motorhome, all 50 states, nineteen countries, and four continents (I am about to choke over my tongue chuckling as I write this--like years count for something in smelling a rat or justifying a post.) Since my original post, I have heard from several work campers at this campground regarding this poster, and have again heard from the management. Everybody went out of their way to help this miserable soul, and, in the end he screwed them all. If you don't see that as being malicious, then all "your years" camping, my friend, are for naught. The webmaster does indeed ask us to rate our experience, and be candid and honest. This guy was neither, and it doesn't take a mental giant to figure that out. And, Cheryl, thank you for your comments--as usual, right on target.
Wow, Beastdriver. You've been camping for longer than I have been alive. Don't mean to make you feel old or anything. I hope that some day I have the experience that you currently have. I have to agree with you that this person does sound like he was malicious when you look at all of the evidence you have put together. However, I would have a hard time finding a reason to remove his review from this site. This is not because I don't think he was being a jerk or being malicious, but he did stay at this park and he wrote a review based on his opinion of his experience. There are several reviews on this site where the reviewer has trashed a campground. Whether they were being truthful or malicious is up for the reader to determine for themselves. Removing this review could set a bad precedent. Could other bad reviews be removed because someone thought the reviewer was being malicious when they were actually being truthful and honest. The best place to dispute these reviews will be in the forum or in subsequent reviews by people who have stayed there after this incident. In the long run reviews like this will be shown for what they actually are, especially when a campground has several good reviews and one review from the so called "jerk". Looking at the reviews for this campground (even before looking at all of your evidence) I would not have given much weight to that review, especially when he is complaining about water freezing in winter. After looking at your evidence I would give no weight to that review. It is just something that the reader is going to have to decide when they read reviews. I also think that all the evidence you have brought about this review to the forum was the best thing you could have done and I would like to thank you for your effort.
Beastdriver, I again re-read the review , my response, and checked the definition of malice (malicious is "having the nature of malice") - "1. The desire to harm others, or to see other suffer; ill will; spite." Definition 2 gets into the legal definition. The review: The reviewer basically states that he had problems (whether real, imagined,or of his own doing) with some of the facilities and the staff. No name calling , no "worst place ever", no "never recommend or stay again". Was he trying to hurt the reputation of the park - probably - but so do almost every reviewer who gives a 1 or a 2 and writes a much more nasty review. My response: I suggested in my previous post that maybe the reviewer was unreasonable or even a jerk. I was trying to agree that this review was most likely unfair, but we should not deny him the right to post his story (COWolfpack said this much more eloquently). Definition: Much of the truly negative criticism in this site's reviews is hurtful to the parks reviewed. In most of the 1 and 2 reviews statements like "worst park ever", "incompetent staff", surliest owners", etc. are all hurtful and meant to harm the park's reputation. If you agree that those reviews are malicious, then you are right - the review under discussion was malicious. By using this interpretation of the word, I could say your were being malicious with comments like "are for naught" and "mental giant". Fortunately I come from the "sticks and stones" school of hurt. Your credentials exceed mine slightly in every category except tenting. That means you are probably older and definitely richer. Was that malicious? COWorfpack: Thanks again for putting much of my position in a, hopefully, much more palatable way. Until I come up with something new to tick off the little club that rules this site. Am I being malicious, argumentative, or a jerk? Should I be banned? Jerry S.
Hello All: Just wanted to add my two cents worth here, as my wife and I have been living at the Colorado City KOA for about .......since May of 2006.........went back to Oklahoma for three weeks, then back out here........hmmmmmmmm......then back in December for two more weeks...... then back out here......oh about 7 months or so...."in country" so to speak. I am aquainted with the family in question, who complained about this park and the way he and his family were delt with. They seemed like a nice enough family....but they had little experience with Rving. When they first arrived, it was VERY cold, snow all over the place and he asked me to help him unhitch his trailer, because I was outside looking at all the snow we had, (us flatland Okies don't get NEAR this much snow) he had broken the cotter pin on his hitch and needed an awl or sharp instrument to push out the old one. By the time I got out my tool box he had already taken care of the problem and unhitched his rig. Then he lowered his front stabilizer jacks smack down into the soft earth and the rig promptly leaned to the right. He said he would take care of it later, as he had to get out to the ranch were they were building a home, since the ground out there was now frozen, they could get in and out. (Fast forward to warmer weather and the ground out there is now a quagmire of mud) I followed him into the laundry room one day, where my wife had just finished her laundry up, and as usual he had just returned from the Hatchet Ranch area where he was building a new home. His work boots were CAKED with mud, NOT from this park, but as usual from his super muddy home site. Everyone one of the RVers that I know of here, wiped their feet on the mats provided outside the entry ways to the restrooms, the laundry room and the front office. Not this fellow. Nope, he just tracked in the heavy mud, after the workfolks had worked hard to clean up the laundry. Soooooooo Elana, one of the owners asked him to start wiping his feet like the rest of us do........his facial expression........well you know how a person can grin from the "teeth out", but not his eyes. He was not happy at all....... I cannot speak for everyone else, just my family.......we have NEVER been treated with anything but courtesy and kindness while we have been here. We chat with other campers and with the owners as well......so we pick up a lot of info, opinions, and attitudes. Tim and Elana are the third owners of this 1970's model park, they have turned it from a overnight park 11 years ago to the destination park it is today. They put in the pool, the game room, the mini golf course, the kids playground, etc. They have brought this place up to rank 11th in the nation among the KOA campgrounds. That is in the TOP 2 to 3 percent of KOA camps. They are work-a-holics. When the blizzard hit so hard here, their camp workers came around, in cold blowing wind, near dusk, and knocked on the door of as many of the campers they could get to, just to check and see if they had enough propane, if they needed anything, etc. They did NOT wait for us to go to them, they got out in the middle of the storm and came to US!! Tim worked constantly to keep the road clear with his snow plow.........and the man is not that well...........I guess you could say we are biased to some degree, however, we have observed these owners over the 7+ months we have been here. There was a mentally ill man here for almost two months, he was from out of state and living in the tent area in his truck. The owners put him in a cabin, because of the cold, charged him tent rates, and then, because his truck engine has frozen up, finally helped him get an apartment in Colorado City that he could afford on his SS check and then helped him out with donated furniture!!! These folks bend over backwards to help people..... This mentally ill man would yell and curse, and shout at his imaginary friends and enemies while he was here. Law enforcement checked him out and said that he was OK, not a threat..........he even broke out the side window on his truck fighting with an imaginary enemy.....any other owner would have had him and his broken down truck hauled out of here in a heart beat!! The owners here took pity on him and did their best to help him..................campers talk, and they all admired these owners for their kind heartedness................so now you know a little about these folks.......... The fellow that complained, while seemingly nice, had an "attitude" about being asked to simply showing respect for others hard work. I suppose they finally got their water in, and electric out at their home site, then they left, and THEN they complained?????? We wil not stay here, for probably more than a year or so........once the doctors get through with us.........who knows............but we could not let this complaint go unanswered because we are here and we saw what was going on..... Thanks for the opportunity to have our say on this matter Lou
Cowolfpack: Don't apologize. I AM old. Older than rock and dirt and trees. But I keep on camping, and I am still young enough to recognize unfairness when I see it as was the case with this reviewer. Jerry: You are right. I was malicious. I tend to be that way when dealing with dumbbutts. Lou/Ferretman: Of all the comments on this subject, your's was, without doubt, the most convincing that the folks who run this campground are truly good people and run a truly good operation, and should not be put down by jerk like the one who wrote this negative review. Thank you.
Not much more to say, as the subject has been covered. BUT, would like to say, that this person(s), has a right to express his/her opinion/experience, wether one agrees or disagrees, right or wrong, with that opinion/experience. It's called, "freedom of speech". A court of law would have to determine if malice or slander exists.
Hello Beastdriver Still cannot get these comments to look right after I send it. It is broke up like rock candy..........anyway.... Every RVer here should thank YOU for calling attention to this mess. I only gave two of many examples my wife and I are aware of, concerning the conduct of the owners of this KOA toward the folks who stay here. This is our first KOA experience, we feel that we have been fortunate to have stayed at one, where the owners truely care for people, not just in words, but in action. The extent that they go to to keep people happy, in good spirits, and safe within the limits of common sense and decency while at their facility, is not only laudable, but speaks volumes about their personal values, and their view of people in general. Yes, this facility is their livlihood, and it is their business, but we can see WHY it is ranked as high as it is among KOA's. It takes more than swimming pools, mini golf courses, playgrounds, etc. to gain that type of recognition. It takes a heartfelt concern for people, their welfare, and a sincerety to make the RVing and camping experience as pleasurable to the greatest extent possible, for the people who have chosen this facility to spend their time, and money at. My wife and I can almost guarantee you, that if the other monthlys', and even those whom we got to know who say they return here every year (and have done so for years), knew of this complaint, that you have brought to the attention of this forum, they would be just as offended, angry, and indignant as you and we are. What concerns us, is that folks, like us, place a certain amount of trust in the opinions and viewpoints of other, far more experienced RVers, in their reviews of these parks. We trust that these reviews are unbiased, and are honest appraisels of their experiences, without an "axe to grind". If I had read this one persons review of this park, before arriving here, it may well have given us at the very least "pause" to choose to stay here. We really do not know what the answer is, other than RVer's like you, who have had previous experiences staying the particular facility in queston, will call attention to unfair reviews, in a forum, because Webmaster will not allow the owners to tell their side of the story, in the reviews section. OK, I will shutup now..........get off of soapbox.........but thanks again... May you have peace, Lou
I would like to just add my 2 cents here for what it's worth. As I agree with Beastdriver that maybe this person's opinion of that place was wrong and maybe they aren't the nicest of people but do we start going after everyone that post's a bad review because we have stayed at that paticular park and don't agree or like what has been said. Just because someone has been doing something for along time doesn't make them right about everything. I haven't been RV'ing as long but I like to think I am pretty good at it as well. I am as honest as I can be when I right a review and I try and use my best judgment when choosing and if I have any real concers contact the place in question. COWolfPack and Butch are right, we cannot become the judge and jury, after all this truly is supposed to be our honest opinion, like it or not. As alway this is just my opinion,
Unless this site is willing to contact every park that has had a very negative review, there doesn't seem to be much we can do about this. As I see it the average person is quicker to complain than they are to praise. They can go on a 2 week trip and spend 13 night at good campgrounds and 1 night at a bad one. Guess which one we will hear about. It would be nice if we lived in a prefect world but then we wouldn't need this site. I would think that the vast majority that use RV Park Reviews never come on the forum section. This be true , what the heck can any one do to correct the situation?
Beastdriver, Regarding your response to Jerry , Thanks for the laugh! :lol: I haven't been camping anywhere near as long as you, but I have been to 43 of the 50 states. I'm missing Louisiana, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Alaska and of course Hawaii. Kind of hard to get the camper there.
QUOTE(Jerry S. @ Feb 26 2007, 10:28 PM) [snapback]6249[/snapback] Until I come up with something new to tick off the little club that rules this site. Jerry S. Jerry, I really do not believe there is a "little club" that rules this site. The Webmaster is the only one here who does that. Of course, as with any forum, there are members who are more active than others. There are also members who are very knowledgeable in almost all matters of rv'ing, as they have been doing it for a long time, and so naturally, their opinions are respected, such as Beastdriver, John Blue, Big Ben and Butch. When I receive advice from any of them, I know that it is sound and based on personal experience. I truly hope that you did not mean the above comment to be taken in the manner which it came across, which is that you purposely look for ways to cause distention and "tick off" people. I think that on every forum I am a member of, there is a group of people that others perceive as being a "clique", but in reality, it is just that we have been on the forum longer and have gotten to know each other a little better. Not to belabor the point - but there truly is not a club here.....
Cheryl: I have no idea where Jerry came up with that "little clique that rules this site" crap. If you will look at the statistics provided by this site, as of yesterday, the top five contributors (I suppose the clique) are Cheryl Fuller, John Blue, Beastdriver, Cheryl, and Butch. When you look at the posts per day record for these top five, plus Jerry, you will find the following: Member Posts Per Day Cheryl Fuller 0.7 John Blue 0.3 Beastdriver 0.3 Cheryl 0.3 Butch 0.3 JERRY S. 0.8 I, of course, can't speak for the rest of this all-powerful"clique" that Jerry refers to, but, in reviewing the average posts per day, perhaps we should invite him to join since he posts more than anybody else on the site!
Hi Guys, I've been pretty quiet for a wile, and decided to chime in about a few things: I agree with most of you in that this review shouldn't be removed from the site, that just goes against the spirit of the site. If you have suggestions on ways to deal with these issues, I'm open for discussion. I just don't want to open the door here to something that becomes unmanageable. As of now, I still read edit and approve every review that gets posted, talk about cross-eyed some days! I do defer quite a few reviews, and sometimes hate to do so as they are really good reviews, but they violate the rules and I don't have the time to edit them. ( NAMES ARE NOT ALLOWED IN REVIEWS ) Anyway, we've implemented a deffered review feedback system, that will allow me to note why I'm not approving the review from a list of reasons, then the system will send an email back to the reviewer with a link that will allow him to edit and re-submit the review. Jerry, I run the site. You guys make the site what it is! Thanks as always for ALL your input, reviews, and opinions!
Mr. Webmaster, I don't always agree with every thing that you decide, but you are always fair. This has gotten totally out of hand. I'm not sure I would call it a club but there are times that some try to intimidate others on here. It is the nature of what we do that throws people from all walks of life together. A tent camper next to a $300,000 MH. Some more educated than others, not better, just able to express themselves more forcefully. As I see it it should make any difference weather you stated last week or 20 years ago. I participate on 4 other web sites and find this one to be far and away the most clannish. I well see where Jerry is coming from. This is by far and away the best review site that I have come across and dose one heck of a lot of good helping a great number of people. Did you every wonder why the forum doesn't have more participation? I'll give the soap box up now. By the way Jerry called it a club not a Clique.
Mr. or Mrs. (or Ms.) Webmaster: I think you do one heck of a job. I have reviews that don't get accepted from time to time for one reason or another, and sometimes you do things that I don't necessarily like but, heck, somebody's got to be in charge. I think you have demonstrated an even-handed fairness over the years and, like you said, you run the site. Those who think that a few monopolize it have the easiest solution in the world: Post more comments and reviews. Thank you for all you do!
Good Grief !!! Okay children, let's play fair ! Clannish, NOT !!! I feel that there are those who are interested in others, as to their general well being, health, travels, experiences, knowledge, etc, and share activities of everyday life, good or bad. As Cheryl Fuller stated, we have all been posting material for some time, and therefore are comfortable with those individuals. Clannish, and or clique, NO, just RVing people who have some things in common. Are you welcome to join in ?? You bet !!! The postings are made, in the open, for all to read.
