Discussion Zone For Rv Park Owners Or Operators

QUOTE(Matt Woodman @ Aug 21 2012, 10:58 AM) [snapback]30735[/snapback]

Whoops....sorry about that! I'll repost. My sincerest apologies to the group...



Reposting my discussion item to meet the requirements of the forum...

I'm the operations manager of an all seasonal park. Wanted to pick the brains of other owner/operators regarding GFI circuit breakers.

We have 255 seasonal sites and all have electricity supplied by Midwest boxes. We have in the boxes 30A GFCI breakers. We have a reliable, safe and maintained system. The one issue that we have is that during a moderate to severe thunderstorm a percentage (5% +/-) of these breakers will trip. For folks that are here - not a big deal, they just wait the storm out and re-set it. However we do have many folks that treat their unit as their "beach house" and are gone during the week.

While most of our customers who are gone for stretches of time do not leave their refrigerators/freezers stocked up - we do have some that simply will not adjust their lifestyle and cannot accept that breaker trips during thunderstorms are a possibility and are the nature of the set up we have.

Like I said, the vast majority of our sites do not trip during storms - but we do have a handful of folks (scattered throughout the park, varied trailer ages) who seem to trip at nearly every storm. Our best guest is that perhaps there are some geographical/geological reasons behind it (?).

Just wondering if other folks have this issue and how they deal with it - either from a customer service side or from a technical standpoint? Particularly interested in how folks in areas like FL or TX deal with this issue - as I have to think that it's a constant issue in areas like that.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

 

QUOTE(Matt Woodman @ Aug 21 2012, 09:14 AM) [snapback]30736[/snapback]

Reposting my discussion item to meet the requirements of the forum...

I'm the operations manager of an all seasonal park. Wanted to pick the brains of other owner/operators regarding GFI circuit breakers.

We have 255 seasonal sites and all have electricity supplied by Midwest boxes. We have in the boxes 30A GFCI breakers. We have a reliable, safe and maintained system. The one issue that we have is that during a moderate to severe thunderstorm a percentage (5% +/-) of these breakers will trip. For folks that are here - not a big deal, they just wait the storm out and re-set it. However we do have many folks that treat their unit as their "beach house" and are gone during the week.

While most of our customers who are gone for stretches of time do not leave their refrigerators/freezers stocked up - we do have some that simply will not adjust their lifestyle and cannot accept that breaker trips during thunderstorms are a possibility and are the nature of the set up we have.

Like I said, the vast majority of our sites do not trip during storms - but we do have a handful of folks (scattered throughout the park, varied trailer ages) who seem to trip at nearly every storm. Our best guest is that perhaps there are some geographical/geological reasons behind it (?).

Just wondering if other folks have this issue and how they deal with it - either from a customer service side or from a technical standpoint? Particularly interested in how folks in areas like FL or TX deal with this issue - as I have to think that it's a constant issue in areas like that.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!


I have never seen a 30amp GFCI. Are you sure you are not talking about the 20 amp GFCI outlets (same as the outlets in the house). GFCIs will occasionally trip during a thunderstorm, though having a large number tripping often is probably an indication something else is amiss, but what is would be is really an infinite list. Is it the same breakers each time, or is it random? The actual breakers should not trip in thunderstorms. I would suggest that if it is the 20 amp GFCI, not the 30 amp breaker or not a 30 amp GFCI (again never seen such a thing), to just have the customer not use that plug for critical systems. They could use a 30 to 20 adapter and plug into the 30 amp plug. If you actually have 30 AMP GFCI breakers, (again never seen such a thing) consider replacing them with standard 30 amp breakers. You will need to check with the local electrical codes, but I seriously doubt a GFCI protected circuit is required on 30 or 50 amp services.

 

They do make 30 amp, 50 amp and 100 amp GFCI's. Home Depot sells them and they are made by Square D. In many, not all I'm sure, locations if the box is within 18 inches of water it is required.

As for Matt's question: The body of the camper gets wet and the neutral is bonded to the ground it will cause the breaker to trip.

 

QUOTE(Matt Woodman @ Aug 21 2012, 09:58 AM) [snapback]30735[/snapback]

Whoops....sorry about that! I'll repost. My sincerest apologies to the group...



No problem. Glad to have you here.

 

QUOTE(dalsgal @ Aug 21 2012, 03:21 PM) [snapback]30740[/snapback]

They do make 30 amp, 50 amp and 100 amp GFCI's. Home Depot sells them and they are made by Square D. In many, not all I'm sure, locations if the box is within 18 inches of water it is required.

As for Matt's question: The body of the camper gets wet and the neutral is bonded to the ground it will cause the breaker to trip.


Learn something every day. I have never seen one in an RV park box. I knew they were required for things like hottubs and spas, but didn't realize they were ever even used in RV park boxes. When you mention 18 inches from water, is that standing water like a tub, wash basin or spa or is it anything that can deliver water such as a water spigot, or for that matter a water pipe just running through the ground nearby? The bonded neutral you are referring to, would that be bonded inside the trailer at the panel, or bonded at breaker panel for the pedestal? The pedestals are all prewired, so I doubt they would be bonded, but I guess it would be possible for the feeder lines to be bonded at the meter base, though that would take a pretty big error by the electrician. At least that solves the mystery of why it only happens when it rains.

 

Matt, is there a local code requirement for the 30 amp GFCI's? The NEC (National Electrical Code 2011 Edition) does not require them for outlets above 20 amps in an RV park.

 

QUOTE(kcmoedoe @ Aug 21 2012, 08:27 PM) [snapback]30744[/snapback]

Learn something every day. I have never seen one in an RV park box. I knew they were required for things like hottubs and spas, but didn't realize they were ever even used in RV park boxes. When you mention 18 inches from water, is that standing water like a tub, wash basin or spa or is it anything that can deliver water such as a water spigot, or for that matter a water pipe just running through the ground nearby? The bonded neutral you are referring to, would that be bonded inside the trailer at the panel, or bonded at breaker panel for the pedestal? The pedestals are all prewired, so I doubt they would be bonded, but I guess it would be possible for the feeder lines to be bonded at the meter base, though that would take a pretty big error by the electrician. At least that solves the mystery of why it only happens when it rains.


It is anything where you get water. That would include faucets, tubs, sinks and even water pipes If there is a leak it can turn deadly. Hubby says it would be at the panel. It cannot be bonded in the RV. If it is bonded in the RV you could check with a meter by touching body of vehicle and the dirt and if you get a reading at all you get a short. (He is the wiring dude, not me).

When we installed new meters for each campsite we put in the 20,30 and 50 amp GFCI breakers.

 

The entire RV is basically a "portable appliance", and the neutral and ground should NOT be bonded per the NEC. The only neutral/ground bonding should be at the primary supply panel.

 

Howdy,

Unfourtunatly our rv resort is not up and running yet. however going over my budgeting if anyone could answer a few questions on power consumption it would be appreciated.

We have 150 seasonal sites 30A P,S,W and 50 30A P,W sites

how much consumption on average do some of you go through to help me get a better idea how much the power bill will be,. ( we are All Utility inclusive trying not to charge for electricity)

Also we will be only open for 5 summer months a year

Thank You

 

Howdy, Out Fishing.

Your question is not easy to answer without knowing the region in which you are located but I will share some average power consumption figures that I had in August and September 2012. My park is in the south where the temps those months was usually in the mid to upper 90's in the daytime. This was a little cooler than normal, but the humidity is rather high. Some of my guests who have 30 amp service averaged around 750 kilowatt hours each of those months. Those were at the high end of the scale. Some used less than 500 Kwh per month on average.

Just curious, Did I understand correctly that you only have 30 Amp sites?

 

Without giving away any exact locations, the park was along I-75 in mid Ga where it can get very, very hot in the summer. We were recently in the area and I wished I knew your exact location so we could have stopped. We stayed in the general area on the way up and on the way down about a month apart. I have heard other campground owners state here that during the summer, they maxed out at about $3.00 per day on electrical costs. Good Luck in your new venture.

 

QUOTE(RanMan @ Oct 25 2012, 09:53 AM) [snapback]31684[/snapback]

Howdy, Out Fishing.

Your question is not easy to answer without knowing the region in which you are located but I will share some average power consumption figures that I had in August and September 2012. My park is in the south where the temps those months was usually in the mid to upper 90's in the daytime. This was a little cooler than normal, but the humidity is rather high. Some of my guests who have 30 amp service averaged around 750 kilowatt hours each of those months. Those were at the high end of the scale. Some used less than 500 Kwh per month on average.

Just curious, Did I understand correctly that you only have 30 Amp sites?


That 30 AMP question occured to me as well. If so, why would you build a new park that is unacceptable to a large number of RVers? I specifically seek out 50 amps, unless I really screw up and nothing else is available. If you don't meter your electricity, you can expect higher bills than average with seasonal guests. They will not be adverse to leaving the AC on cool even when they are gone for the week.

 

Good Questions and thanks!

We will be compatible with 50 AMP wire and all that. but right now with only one phase power available we may not be able to provide 50 AMP power to a large number of sites. either way the proposed park is in Alberta ( i think i can state the province??) and really even in dead summer it does not get hot enough for most people to use air conditioning from what i hear.( we average 22 degrees per day in july and august. or 72-71 Farinhit) and honestly from what marketing we have done so far and the people on the seasonal waiting list there was little demand for 50 AMP power.

now we are not up and running yet these are just preliminary so i could be wrong. thats why we decided for the minimal extra infrastructure cost to make all sites compatible with 50AMP. just have 30 AMP breakers.

on that note im curious what is the power consumption difference between a unit that has 50amp and 30 amp? is it significant?

Thanks for all the Help

 

Hi Outfishing,

A 30 amp site offers up to 3600 watts if it is maxed out.

A 50 amp site offers up to 12000 watts if it is maxed out.

Potentially the 50 amp may consume about four times as much energy. Even with the low rates in Alberta that still costs a lot more.

At the same time, the trend is towards 50 amp service in RV's, so I believe planning for it and having 50 amp breakers would be a forward thinking thing to do.

50 amp is not two phase. It is two legs--just as an electric stove is.

 

QUOTE(pianotuna @ Oct 25 2012, 05:29 PM) [snapback]31689[/snapback]
50 amp is not two phase. It is two legs--just as an electric stove is.

Actually, 50 amp power for RVs (and electric stoves) is two-phase. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase. That's why the neutral conductor isn't twice as big as the two hot legs--the return current will never exceed the draw of one of the hot legs.

You can verify that the legs are out of phase by measuring the voltage across the two hot legs. It should be 240 VAC.

Wandering a bit off-topic, that's also why those of us who use a Cheater Box with two 30 amp outlets need to watch our total current draw. If those two outlets happen to be in phase, we could theoretically draw 60 amps down the neutral line. On a cold morning, we sometimes draw up to 75 amps when connected to 50 amp power.

Oh, and thanks for calling it "amp" rather than "AMP". As you know, "amp" is simply short for "ampere", not an acronym for something else, like "IBM".

 

Hi Denali,

I meant as opposed to three phase power lines--which are a different kettle of fish altogether. But you are right.

 

QUOTE(Denali @ Oct 25 2012, 09:28 PM) [snapback]31690[/snapback]

Actually, 50 amp power for RVs (and electric stoves) is two-phase. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase. That's why the neutral conductor isn't twice as big as the two hot legs--the return current will never exceed the draw of one of the hot legs.




Most residential homes are fed with single-phase power (sometimes called split-phase.) The power company runs three wires into the home which comprises of two hot wires and a neutral wire. The neutral is actually a center-tapped feed off the transformer. Voltage measured across both hot wires is 240 VAC. Voltage measured from any hot to neutral is 120 VAC (split-phase). So, a regular 120 VAC circuit is fed with one hot and the neutral (split-phase). A dryer or oven is fed with both hots which provides 240 VAC (single or full-phase).

Some people mistakenly believe that a 240 VAC circuit is "two-phase," but they are wrong; it's actually the full phase of a single-phase circuit whereas the 120 VAC feeds are half-phase (split-phase).

 

I hope someone is understanding all this. :blink:

 

Yep, understanding it and agreeing fully with Joel...

 

Thanks for the correction and lucid explanation, Joel.