Ouestion For Campers From A Park Owner

deleted

 

Hi Gilda,

Once upon a time there was a phone company called "Sasktel". Some creep somewhere decided that land lines were just not convenient enough and the cell phone network was born.

Of course, every cell phone tower costs thousands of dollars to put up--so one doesn't wish to use any more than necessary. A survey was done. Sites were built (and fairly quickly too). The system was up and running.

EXCEPT when they did the survey the sun spot cycle was at an eleven year low. So now in rural areas where there are not an over abundance of towers cell phone service is quite "spotty" depending on where we are in the sunspot cycle.

Wifi is considerably lower power than a cell phone. When folks design the system they are out and about in good weather. Adequate signal strength is "good enough"--after all equipment costs are not particularly low. Then it rains and the system goes to **** in a hand basket.

Now that the "adequate" system is built. let's add 50 RV's. Oops--they all want to surf the net faster than greased lightening. Oops, the repeater antenna is not line of sight to the farthest RV spot in the park--so there isn't a signal. Oops the laptops in the third row can receive the signal from the repeater antenna--but they can't transmit back to it because the signal has to penetrate five vehicles walls, because the antenna "tower" is simply not high enough up in the air. Oops, there are 13 channels but because the frequencies are so close together really only 1,6, and 13 are viable. Oops again--everyone who comes into the campground jumps onto channel 6. Needless to say it is slow as molasses. You also have 51 transmitters each of which causes interference with the others.

Do the installers care? Nope. Do they even understand how a campground wifi system should designed? Nope.

I'm sure someone who is more well versed than I about this can come up with dozens more reasons why most campground wifi systems are less than pleasing to all concerned, particularly when the campground is full.

Gilda, no wonder you and Western hate wifi.

QUOTE(gilda @ May 15 2009, 11:55 AM) [snapback]16412[/snapback]

Boy..do I ever agree with you!!! Hate it!! If it wouldn't hurt business, I would get rid of it in a heartbeat. I've threatened to get rid of it to some who complain non stop. When you have a park that is filled to capacity, I don't care HOW good your wifi system is....It still has troublw getting through some huge rigs.

 

Pianotuna, great post. That just about covers 20% of the problems with WiFi. The other 80% is operator error. Even the best wifi system doesn't work when the user hasn't plugged in the wifi card or turned on the wifi switch on the computer. What a joy it would be if they wanted to just "surf the net at light speed". Try streaming full length movies, using a videophone on a conference call over skype or vonage, or maybe they just needed to completely design and model a nuclear weapon. Of course, everyone must do this between 8 and 10 PM. I am seriously considering renaming my place "RV Park/Computer Technical Support"

 

QUOTE
but I'm usually dumping the gray at least twice in a nights stay.......



Wow, I can’t imagine. We boondock a lot and are used to not using too much water. We have 75 gallon gray and 50 gallon black (actually we call it the yellow tank, because we never do what make it black in it. Go elsewhere for that after a bad experience years ago.). We just got back from a 4 night trip with one night of boondocking and I dumped only this morning and was considering not doing it because of the huge rain. We have a dump site where we store the coach. Nether tank was full.


We just stayed 3 nights at a Campground in Dover, FL and it advertised WiFi Available. I knew what it meant and when I got there it, was Tenngo WiFi. $4.95/night. The was a McDonalds nearby and it was free for an hour with any purchase, but I couldn’t get it even with my antenna at the coach. I had a talk with the manager and they realized that they are competing with free WiFi and are wavering. I am not going to pay $4.95 except in rare instances. I am just too cheap. It was a Passport America campground also.

 

QUOTE(campNout @ May 12 2009, 12:22 AM) [snapback]16341[/snapback]

I just came across ed this site couple of days ago, and have really enjoyed reading all the posts.
I came looking for information on WiFi and have posted a few questions and have gotten some good answers. In reading posts about Camp Reviews I have gotten the feeling that most campers do not like to pay for wifi or wifi provided by a third party. I have been working to add wifi for 2 years, I wanted to install it my self with no charge to guests. I realized that I could not install antennas on top of all buildings in park or all the other gizmos needed to get a signal over the whole park. I just paid a deposit 1/2 of the fee to have a third party install. After reading all the posts I feel I have made a expensive error, but it is to late now to back out.

Questions are to help me serve my guests and make their stay as pleasant as possible.

Why don't campers like third party wifi (I will not be getting any of the profit) even thou I am paying for all the equipment, additional charges for higher speed and an IP address PLUS $10.00 a month to company to maintain the site.

Here is a quote that I copied from a post. "" I will claim "false advertising" if the RV Park says "We have wireless" only to find out that you have to sign up with a third party "" Can you help me with the Proper way to let guests know wifi is available to them. What should I place on my web site.??? Would it correct to say wifi provider by *******. I am confused about this.

I have read that the price most are willing to pay is $2.00 a day. I don't know if I can convince the ***company to go with $2.00 but might be able to get the rate down to $3.00.

Here are my options Our In season rate is $40.00 (our rate is the lowest in our area, other parks are $75.00 - $90.00) Hey if I charged $90.00 I could have FREE wifi. I have a Internet coupon for $3.00 off the nightly rate. Also give $3.00 for AARP, Military etc. I could discontinue all discounts and pay the $3.00 my self so the guest could have WiFi FREE. Do you think I should do this or keep the discount and let the guest pay for wifi if they want it. I feel that by doing away with the discount I am making the ones who have no interest in internet {afer all they are on vacation} pay for the ones who do. PLEASE help me out here.

We use to charge $2.00 for cable tv. We did this because the guests with satellite did not need or want cable and were able to save $2.00. THIS Did not work as when guests found out the cable was $2.00 NO ONE Wanted ctv, BUT when we would go around the park most were hooked up to ctv. When asked NICELY about it they would say OH WE ONLY WANTED To watch one program. We had no choice but to add the $2.00 to the rate and make the ctv FREE.

I read posts by a camp owner who told of all the time spent helping people get on line. I know this is true as even with ctv we are constantly having to take a tv to the site to prove the cable works. WE SPEND HOURS A WEEK SHOWING PEOPLE HOW TO PROGRAM THEIR SETS TO GET CABLE. Cable has been a NIGHTMARE and now another BEAST coming my way Internet.

Until my contract is up with said company I am stuck and hope some one here will help point me in the right direction. Free (not really) or Pay. I can't pay the ***company when a guests goes on line and give the discount so which one is the better way.


B) Congratulations, from your words it appears that you are an honest and conscientious businessman, I agree with you, the promotion whichever forms it takes it may be misleading.
It is several years that I am spending my winter months in Florida and at my first encounter with this place, I was somewhat upset since they were advertising that the Internet is available but it was not mentioned that the service was actually provided by a third party for about $ 29 a month (at least this was until last winter) and the service was/is somewhat unreliable; the club house in need of repair and was never done and other secondary things that were mentioned in the adds but often on repair/out of service.. etc.....
Now and in my opinion, there are 3 types of campgrounds, the very cheap one in which every thing goes and I consider them as places to spend the night and leave next day; the middle budgets which are those that the majority of RVers are looking to spend a considerable time and the luxury one.
While the first one is already been defined , the second one is running on a very sharp line, namely, yes please the RVers but also make money for the owner/corporation and this type should be very clear in its promotion by advertising (i.e. Internet provided by third party at $....; boat available if closed to the water at $... ; cable TV or… etc..) e specify up front whether the service is provided free or against payment.
It is still my own opinion that the responsibility of a owner/corporation is to provide a reasonable size lot for the rig, the hygienic services clean and efficient and to monitor the unrolling campers not to disturb the others. h34r:
The third type of camp should be considered a luxury place where you pay an over average amount in the rent and because of that, the frills as cable, internet and local phone call should be free.
Running a camp is just like running a business, you have to deliver what you promote in your adds, failing to keep up to your promises, campers will talk to each others and with the Internet and chats facilities it is the most powerful advertising or degrading for a given business.
Good luck

 

QUOTE(campNout @ May 13 2009, 05:17 PM) [snapback]16377[/snapback]
What if a guest comes in and pays the higher rate but only uses the internet for 2 out of 5 days.



I would be surprised if wifi was included in the site fee that people wouldn't use it every night (or every morning). The internet has become a virtual necessity. Don't worry, if you have wifi, people will use it!

As with other posters, just be as clear as possible about what your campground provides.

 

just my opinion. if you want to advertise free wi fi put the cost in the site fee.
if you advertise wi fi available, the customer should know there is going to be a fee for it. at least ask if there is and find out how much.
i own a boat when i see a sign at a marina that states slips available i don't think there free. i go and ask how much.
i have looked a lot of reviews that put down the campground for the wi fi service. a little up front communication would probable eliminate this.
again just my opinion.
bob

 

Just one quickie, a lot of comments mention "third party provider" for the internet service. Unless you are AL GORE and invented the internet, it is all third party. I don't think any campground owns an ISP and even Internet Service Providers use phone lines and satellite links etc. owned by others. Many campgrounds choose "visible" outside providers because they have no technical ability to provide the WiFi support, nor should they be expected to. Being able to run a data network was not a requirement to own a campground the last time I checked.

 

Third party to me means you deal with the service provider directly. It goes something like this: You log on and then use your credit card to pay a fee. You usually have to set up your own username and password, and then you have access to the internet. Some "third party"companies that come to mind are Tengonet and Coachnet. I have not really used these so I may not have the info exactly right, but that is sort of how it goes.

I realize that almost, if not all, campgrounds use an internet company (third party) to provide the park's service. But I do not really consider it third party if I do not have to deal directly with that company to get service. If there is a fee I pay it to the park; they give me the info I need to get on--username, password--and if I'm lucky it all goes well. If not I go back to the park office, not the internet company, and the park employees try to help and/or fix the problem.

Anyway that is how I see the difference. It may not be technically correct, but there is a little bit of difference from my point of view.

 

B) Hi all,

I hope I can shed a little light on the 3rd party provider issue. We have a park in a rural area, and when we first opened in 2001 WIFI did not exist in RV Parks. A couple of years later the technology began to spread to RV Parks throughout the country, and we jumped on board excited to embrace this new paradigm. The first problem that we encountered was that in our area at that time the only high speed internet signal that we could receive was via satellite. Our rural phone cooperative did not provide DSL and there is no cable company serving our area. I solicited proposals from several different companies to set up the service for us and then provide the installation of equipment, service and tech support. Neither I nor anyone on our staff was expert enough in this field to design or administer such a program.

For about a five year period, we spent in excess of twelve thousand dollars in equipment, installation, service, tech support and monthly charges from Hughes Satellite for the incoming satellite signal. Our service worked great at times, not so good at times, and almost non existent at times. The sporadic service was due mainly to the weaknesses of a satellite based system. During this period we went through three different companies trying to overcome these technical difficulties caused by the inherent weakness of a satellite based system, the hilly topography and wooded nature of our park, and the varying degress of signal quality caused by the number, type and size of RVs parked in the park at any given time.

Finally, about two years ago, our local phone cooperative brought in fiber optic cable and DSL service. This, along with another $3,000 in upgrades in our equipment has at last given us an excellent system and rendered obsolete the two large satellite dishes that we had previously bought. We still use a 3rd party provider who did our full site survey and told what equipment we would need to fully cover the park, installed the equipment, and provides 24 hour technical support for us and for users of the service. We have had many or our customers tell that we now have the best WIFI they have ever had in an RV Park. We have a total of three separate directional antennas on top of our main building plus three omni directional repearters scattered throughout the park. The third party provider is able to remotely monitor our system and alerts us immediately if one of our repeaters or routers is not operating or needs rebooting. If one of customers is having difficulty in accessing the service, we give them a card containing the toll free tech support number, and the techs are happy to walk them through their setup issues (and it is almost always the customers' setup errors that cause their access problems).

Having this third party support is invaluable to us and our customers. There is no way our service or technical support could be what it is without such a third party provider.

As a side note. I have read some comments on this forum about certain of these providers whose service was not what was expected and the 3rd party provider is blamed. I can tell you from experience that the service that can be provided by such 3rd party is only as good as the incoming signal to the RV Park and the equipment that the RV Park is willing to pay for.

In summary, I am an RVer and an RV Park owner, not a WIFI company. To provide good WIFI to our customers, I hire a good WIFI company and buy the best equipment available, just as I hire an electrician to do any complex electrical work. Hanging a wire out the office window and calling it a WIFI system is a concept I do not comprehend.

Thanks again for letting me opine on this fantastic forum.

Doug

 

QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Jun 11 2009, 11:10 AM) [snapback]16911[/snapback]

Third party to me means you deal with the service provider directly. It goes something like this: You log on and then use your credit card to pay a fee. You usually have to set up your own username and password, and then you have access to the internet. Some "third party"companies that come to mind are Tengonet and Coachnet. I have not really used these so I may not have the info exactly right, but that is sort of how it goes.

I realize that almost, if not all, campgrounds use an internet company (third party) to provide the park's service. But I do not really consider it third party if I do not have to deal directly with that company to get service. If there is a fee I pay it to the park; they give me the info I need to get on--username, password--and if I'm lucky it all goes well. If not I go back to the park office, not the internet company, and the park employees try to help and/or fix the problem.

Anyway that is how I see the difference. It may not be technically correct, but there is a little bit of difference from my point of view.

How would you view my situation. I provide passwords and usernames for the service (included with site rental). After connecting to my access points you launch your internet browser and are redirected to a sign in page. The sign in page has BOTH my campground name and the provider name. You choose camper login and put in the codes and you are on the internet. If you do not have codes (getting my feed while you are not a registered guest) you can purchase codes from the provider and use the service. I get a small percentage of the fees, but it happens rarely (about $2.00 per month). I chose this option because when I did not have a "pay to use" option, people would stop on the street and try to borrow codes from guests. At times there would be 5 or 6 cars parked along the road trying to use the free internet. Since it appears to non guests that the wifi is available for a fee they tend to just move on. You can deal directly with the company and get on the internet, but my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs. Is it a first party or a third party system? Does it really matter?

 

I just read a couple of statements provided by, I believe by park owners and I sympathize with them in trying to improve their facilities, this is a good way to attract people, however, the original issue was not based on having or not having internet facilities but to provide an honest disclosure regarding what’s offered within the camp fee and what is provided at an extra cost.
With respect to both articles published by camp-owners, I understand that they went out of their way to please the campers in their facility, however, the matter discussed here could be very well at an additional charge.
Like I mentioned in my previous message, I am spending good part of my Winters in Florida and I need to use the Internet while I am there, notwithstanding that, I am not expecting that the corporation owning the camp should absorb the cost for this service, however, since the campsite is promoting this facility, I expect the camp owner to be responsible for the level of service provided (I mean, if campers have reasonable complaints regarding the service too unreliable or too slow or too choppy or… etc.), a camp owner should bring up the matter with the internet provider and keep monitoring the service provided for reliability
What I am trying to say is that, yes the service is provided by a third party but, you as owner/corporation are advertising this addition in your facility, therefore, it is morally implied that you consider this service in accordance with your standard.
Now I am going to talk about a different subject but still in line with camp owner’s honesty in advertising and a campers’ reactions for not receiving what it was expected; I don’t mention the name of the camp because it would not be fair .
Two years ago, during the Summer time, it was reported that the club house of the campsite that I spend my winters there had been destroyed by a tornado and it will be rebuilt soon.
The same Winter that I went there for my 3 months staying and the club house was still in limbo and because of the no washroom facilities ware available closed by (except for the portable one that you find during the road construction) we were forced to used those at the other side of the camp, upon our protest, we were told that the matter would have been settled soon.
The winter went by, the club house was not rebuilt and we (campers) learned that there was not a tornado destroying the unit but it has been closed by the, lets call it, Florida safety organization because the place was corroded by termites.
Now and to make a long story short, I know for fact that, this camp did loose at least 30 or 40% of snow birds and unless they make up their act, this winter I am going to spend my $ 700 and + per month in a place more reliable.
I am mentioning this issue on this specific forum because I understand that it is read by camp owners and I hope they may learn that the honesty in business is the only way to have people coming back to your facility.

 

This topic has been very active for a month so it's obviously a hot button for both sides.

Perhaps there is a middle ground for some campground owners who don’t want to bear the expense of installing a campground wide system. We all know there are nationally know chain restaurants, bookstores, coffee shops, and the like that provide Wi-Fi service to customers. I would prefer to sit in the comfort of my RV, but if the campground had a decent comfortable place to sit and maybe drink a cup of coffee while I’m online, then I don’t have a problem with “coming to you” for the connection. We’ve all got laptops and a small walk to the lounge isn’t a major inconvenience. An office system with a decent DSL band width will accommodate several connections at once and be very cost effective. I’m now online at such a place. It’s got nice overstuffed chairs and sofas, several tables, and convenient electrical plugs. There’s free coffee and a wide screen TV. The best deal of all is that for the cost of a short walk, I didn’t have to pay the built in charge for “free” Wi-Fi.

 

QUOTE(RLM @ Jun 11 2009, 04:37 PM) [snapback]16916[/snapback]

This topic has been very active for a month so it's obviously a hot button for both sides.

Perhaps there is a middle ground for some campground owners who don’t want to bear the expense of installing a campground wide system. We all know there are nationally know chain restaurants, bookstores, coffee shops, and the like that provide Wi-Fi service to customers. I would prefer to sit in the comfort of my RV, but if the campground had a decent comfortable place to sit and maybe drink a cup of coffee while I’m online, then I don’t have a problem with “coming to you” for the connection. We’ve all got laptops and a small walk to the lounge isn’t a major inconvenience. An office system with a decent DSL band width will accommodate several connections at once and be very cost effective. I’m now online at such a place. It’s got nice overstuffed chairs and sofas, several tables, and convenient electrical plugs. There’s free coffee and a wide screen TV. The best deal of all is that for the cost of a short walk, I didn’t have to pay the built in charge for “free” Wi-Fi.


Not a chance this would satisfy the vast majority of WiFi needy RVers. Wish it would.

 

QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Jun 11 2009, 02:14 PM) [snapback]16914[/snapback]

How would you view my situation. SNIP. Is it a first party or a third party system? Does it really matter?



To answer your question (and without actually experiencing your system), it sounds more first party (which I realize it really isn't). I know you said that I could deal directly with the internet provider to get access, but I would probably follow the first scenario and deal with you, the park owner, to get my access codes. I just remember a few short years ago that some parks did not handle their internet service as most do now. When I would ask about internet access they would hand me a flier with information about a service provider. As mentioned before it was usually Tengonet or CoachConnect (I think I had the name wrong earlier). I had to log on, pay a fee with my credit card, and then I would get access. I just didn't prefer to handle it that way.

I understand I'm not entirely right in my thinking, but you yourself said, "my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs." That has a first party "feel" even if it is not. Truthfully, in this day and time it probably doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue; I was just trying to explain what third party meant to me.

 

QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Jun 11 2009, 06:47 PM) [snapback]16918[/snapback]

To answer your question (and without actually experiencing your system), it sounds more first party (which I realize it really isn't). I know you said that I could deal directly with the internet provider to get access, but I would probably follow the first scenario and deal with you, the park owner, to get my access codes. I just remember a few short years ago that some parks did not handle their internet service as most do now. When I would ask about internet access they would hand me a flier with information about a service provider. As mentioned before it was usually Tengonet or CoachConnect (I think I had the name wrong earlier). I had to log on, pay a fee with my credit card, and then I would get access. I just didn't prefer to handle it that way.

I understand I'm not entirely right in my thinking, but you yourself said, "my guests deal with me and get on for no added costs." That has a first party "feel" even if it is not. Truthfully, in this day and time it probably doesn't matter. I wasn't trying to argue; I was just trying to explain what third party meant to me.

I almnost forgot to mention, as a park owner I hate Wifi :lol:

 

QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ May 13 2009, 05:50 PM) [snapback]16371[/snapback]

Wifi included in the site fees is the way to go. Contact your vendor and find out how much they will charge you to let your guests sign in at no charge. That being said, do not worry too much if you are unable to provide it for free. The guy that was going to claim "false advertising" and similar threats are all a lot of hot air. You wouldn't be expected to provide propane for free if you advertised "propane available". Don't worry about stuff like that. The biggest reason we include wifi in the fees is it improves customer satisfaction and reduces the complaints if the wifi is slower or has some problems. Most people don't feel right raising a ruckus about something they didn't directly pay for. A couple of dollars more for a site won't cause people to choose other parks and you may get a few new customers due to the WiFi




If you have 50 sites and you charge what some are charging (3.95/day), that gives you roughly $200 per day or $6000. per month. That would cover a lot more than your WiFi provider. That's pretty steep.

 

QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Jun 11 2009, 03:41 PM) [snapback]16917[/snapback]

Not a chance this would satisfy the vast majority of WiFi needy RVers. Wish it would.



It works for Starbucks and the like, but I'll defer to your campground expertise on the needy Rvers.

I'm probably giving away a million dollar idea, but I wonder if there would be a way to provide broad band connections with the cable tv on individual sites. It's routinely done in houses.

 

deleted

 

Gilda, tell people to shut off their computers when they are not using the internet. On a laptop, you can just shut the lid to go to "sleep" mode. This disconnects from the WiFi, and will reconnect when you open the lid. It's automatic.

When you are 100% full, you want to make sure people aren't connected when they aren't using it.

JJ