This topic is very interesting to me as a Park owner providing WIFI. Some previous posters are correct that there is no such thing as "Free" WIFI. The questions for a park owner are: Do we charge the large majority of our campers for WIFI even though they don't use it? Are we able to provide it free? Believe it or not, it is not possible to provide it free in some rural areas where the access to the internet for the campground is satellite. In our park, since we do not have access to DSL or a cable signal, we have had to enlist a third party WiFI provider who does the billing and collecting via credit card on-line. We couldn't waive the charge if we wanted to. I could agree to pay the charge for anyone who who accessed the service from our location, but I would be paying for many usres who are not even staying in our park (we are adjoined by the largest State Park in Texas and two other campgrounds, whose customers regularly use the service provided by our park). Some have cited what they think it costs park operators to install WIFI. I can tell you that we have spent over $8,000 in satellite equipment, antennas, cable and repeaters, as well as 3 different providers, in the 5 years that we have been attempting to perfect a system in our park. This is in addition to an ongoing $200 monthly charge for broadband signal through Hughes Satellite. Someday, we hope to have access to DSL through our rural telephone cooperative where I assume that we will pay a flat monthly fee for the broadband signal and can build it into our rates accordingly. But through our satellite based system, billing is based on usage and it is not possible include it as a cost of business. Some people sign up for a one day contract, some 3 days, a week, a month or 6 months, and use the remainder of their contract at other parks using the same provider after they have left our park. Thank you for letting me add my 2 cents worth. Doug
Hi Doug, I know there are costs involved and that they are not necessarily low. What I object to is "surprise" charges. If the camp says they have wifi and there will be a fee--that's fair. If on the other hand there is a "charge" for wifi that is over and above the campground fee when they advertise as "internet friendly, or wifi enabled" without mentioning a fee then I get *upset* pronto! As to "outsiders" using your wifi--it is quite possible to require a password to access the signal. That would tend to limit your costs. One park I visited "sells" the password for $1.00. Given that his campground has 250 sites--a buck seems to work out well for him to cover his costs. His advertising does mention the fee too. I rarely take advantage of "free" cable tv--but it is almost always included in the price of a site at those campgrounds that have chosen to offer that service. Perhaps I should ask for a discount? or a discounted site where the cable doesn't operate? All in all I'd rather have the wifi fee "hidden" in the campsite fee. It would be interesting to know how many folks in RV's don't have a computer with them. I suspect the number of non users is very low. QUOTE(Parkview @ Oct 6 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]8560[/snapback] This topic is very interesting to me as a Park owner providing WIFI. Some previous posters are correct that there is no such thing as "Free" WIFI. The questions for a park owner are: Do we charge the large majority of our campers for WIFI even though they don't use it? Are we able to provide it free? Believe it or not, it is not possible to provide it free in some rural areas where the access to the internet for the campground is satellite. In our park, since we do not have access to DSL or a cable signal, we have had to enlist a third party WiFI provider who does the billing and collecting via credit card on-line. We couldn't waive the charge if we wanted to. I could agree to pay the charge for anyone who who accessed the service from our location, but I would be paying for many usres who are not even staying in our park (we are adjoined by the largest State Park in Texas and two other campgrounds, whose customers regularly use the service provided by our park). Some have cited what they think it costs park operators to install WIFI. I can tell you that we have spent over $8,000 in satellite equipment, antennas, cable and repeaters, as well as 3 different providers, in the 5 years that we have been attempting to perfect a system in our park. This is in addition to an ongoing $200 monthly charge for broadband signal through Hughes Satellite. Someday, we hope to have access to DSL through our rural telephone cooperative where I assume that we will pay a flat monthly fee for the broadband signal and can build it into our rates accordingly. But through our satellite based system, billing is based on usage and it is not possible include it as a cost of business. Some people sign up for a one day contract, some 3 days, a week, a month or 6 months, and use the remainder of their contract at other parks using the same provider after they have left our park. Thank you for letting me add my 2 cents worth. Doug
QUOTE All in all I'd rather have the wifi fee "hidden" in the campsite fee. It would be interesting to know how many folks in RV's don't have a computer with them. I suspect the number of non users is very low. We don't take a computer with us. But, we also aren't retired or work from our camper. We usually are gone for 4 weeks a year. We do just fine without the computer for that short time. We do take our cell phones in case our sons (both adults) need to reach us.
Hi Cheryl, As a "non computer on the road family" how do you feel about wifi being a "hidden" fee? Do you make use of cable at the campgrounds (for tv)? I use my laptop for my gps so always have it with me while I travel. I also use skype to make calls while I'm "on the road" to avoid roaming charges (Canadian Cell phones are vicious that way). QUOTE(Cheryl @ Oct 7 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]8565[/snapback] We don't take a computer with us. But, we also aren't retired or work from our camper. We usually are gone for 4 weeks a year. We do just fine without the computer for that short time. We do take our cell phones in case our sons (both adults) need to reach us.
Hi Pianotuna, Ihear what you are saying, but I do not have a password to give you under a satellite based system. You create your own password when you sign up. As for misleading advertising, I advertise heavily in the major publications, and in reviewing 100s of Ads for parks offering wifi, I can find none that state that wifi is provided for a fee, but I do find that if a park offers it for free, that fact is stated in the Ad. My Ads also mention that we have groceries, RV supplies, Propane, etc., and I think it is clearly understood by all that there might be a charge. Believe me, if it was free I would advertise it. Doug
No, we don't use the cable either. Although, some campgrounds you have to pay for it to get full hook-up. Do I like paying for something I don't use? No! But if it is part of the site fee, what are you going to do? I guess if wi-fi was built in I wouldn't like it either, but I wouldn't stay away from a campground I wanted to go to just because of it. There is a thread on here where some one complains that they have to "pay for the pool" they never use. In my opinion, that's different because there is no way to determine who is actually using it. The cable and wi-fi however can be. And no, we don't always use the pool, probably 9 times out of 10 we don't.
Hi Doug, I'm enjoying your posts! Nice to hear from the other side of the telescope. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but if you have a web page for your campground I *hope* it lets folks know all the fees they might chose to pay. No one enjoys "extra cost" surprises. Doug, does the internet provider pay you a fee for each person who "signs up" to use the system? I've noticed that Woodhall's does put a $ sign beside wifi if there is an additional fee for using it. As I said before I'd rather have an "all in" fee than paying for each and every service. I can think of exceptions, of course. If a campground is in the desert and water is in short supply then pay showers make a lot of sense. I see some campgrounds don't allow the use of electric heaters. I think those places should raise their basic rate to recover the cost of the kilowatt hours a heater might use. If the wiring is able to run an AC unit--it certainly should be able to handle a heater. If the wiring can't handle AC then the campground is not going to be very popular! I did not stay at one desert campground in the summer of 2006 because they openly state that air conditioners are not to be used. I applaud their honesty in their web site, but as a Canadian 110 F without A.C. was not to my taste. I don't use the pool. I don't use the club house. I don't use the laundry. I don't use the recreational facilities. I don't use the cable tv. I don't use the dog run. I do use the showers and toilet (if they are clean). I do use wifi if it is free or very low fee. I do use the modem phone if one is available. I do use the dump station. I do use the water. I do use the picnic table. I do use the electricity. I do expect the folks who are serving me to be pleasant. So far I've only had one who was a bit "burned out". If I were a tight wad I suppose I'd try to negotiate a lower fee since I don't use about 40% of what is generally offered. I'm grateful that campground owners provide us all with generally very good service and nice clean facilities. I apologize for wandering so far away from wifi! (I'll be good from now on I promise!) I'd love to see your website Doug (if you have one, that is). QUOTE(Parkview @ Oct 7 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]8569[/snapback] Hi Pianotuna, Ihear what you are saying, but I do not have a password to give you under a satellite based system. You create your own password when you sign up. As for misleading advertising, I advertise heavily in the major publications, and in reviewing 100s of Ads for parks offering wifi, I can find none that state that wifi is provided for a fee, but I do find that if a park offers it for free, that fact is stated in the Ad. My Ads also mention that we have groceries, RV supplies, Propane, etc., and I think it is clearly understood by all that there might be a charge. Believe me, if it was free I would advertise it. Doug
Hi Cheryl, I guess that the pool could have a coin operated turnstile. The dog Run could be similar--and power meters might be "spawned" on every RV site. Pay showers would be a must--and "spend a penny" would be used too! I put what I do and don't use into the post just before this one. I failed to mention I boondock if I can! I love low service campgrounds and low fee helps. QUOTE(Cheryl @ Oct 7 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]8571[/snapback] No, we don't use the cable either. Although, some campgrounds you have to pay for it to get full hook-up. Do I like paying for something I don't use? No! But if it is part of the site fee, what are you going to do? I guess if wi-fi was built in I wouldn't like it either, but I wouldn't stay away from a campground I wanted to go to just because of it. There is a thread on here where some one complains that they have to "pay for the pool" they never use. In my opinion, that's different because there is no way to determine who is actually using it. The cable and wi-fi however can be. And no, we don't always use the pool, probably 9 times out of 10 we don't.
Pianotuna, But then that would cost the campground owner money to install all of those things. I don't complain about having to pay the fee that is posted. I know before hand what it is. If they raise the rate to include wi-fi, so be it. If I really want to go visit that area and the park has good reviews, I'll pay it. We go on vacation to sight see, we don't spend a lot of time at the campground, mostly in the late evenings. But that is because we only get 4 weeks a year (goes to 5 in 2008!). If we go for a weekend, we spend time at the campground with family that also go. I'm sure when we retire and can go for months at a time, I'll want to take the computer then. I also don't use most of the things you don't - except we do laundry once during our trip and the machines are always coin operated. The only reason I even said I didn't like for things I don't use (cable & wi-fi) is because I was asked - by you. We have been to places that charge extra to run your air-conditioner.
Hi again Pianotuna, I hope I am not boring everyone with my posts from the other side of the aisle, but please remember that I have been an RVer for a lot more years than I have been an RV Park operator (30 years vs. 6). So please realize that I have a lot of empathy with most of the points discussed here. Been there, done that. As for my website, I have tried to participate in these forums when I have time, but I have tried to keep from blatantly advertising my park. I don't know whether the webmaster will appreciate it, but since you asked for my website, here it is: ParkviewRiversideRV.com. We do allow the use of electric heaters, but I understand why many campground owners do not. As a member of the Texas Association of Campground Owners, we have semi-annual membership meetings where we discuss items of mutual concern. Believe it or not, the concerns of our members are the same as the concerns discussed in these forums, though admittedly the proposed answers are not always the same. I have been warned by many of our veteran members that if I am going to cater to the Winter Texan Business (the PC term for Snowbirds), I had better meter and charge for electricity or else they will use electric heaters, electric skillets and microwave ovens to avoid using propane. Therefore, many parks that do not meter and charge for electricity, do not permit the use of heaters: it has nothing to do with the wiring. It has to do with the bottom line. We do not currently meter electricity and do not prohibit the use of heaters (I couldn't enforce it anyway). I do not rule out the possibility that we might install meters someday for our long term winter visitors, so we can keep our basic monthly rates low. The Wifi provider does pay us a 30% commission on usage from our location, but I have to pay for equipment, maintenace, and broadband signal from Hughes Satellite. The Woodall's listings do include a $ sign if there is a charge for WIFI, but the advertisements generally do not state any charges but do state boldly if it is offered "Free." Everything that is customarily provide at an RV site is included in our rates, and if we ever get to the point that I can get a set dedicated monthly bill for Wifi, then I will also include that in our rates, not because I think it is right, but because it is what customers seem to want. I reiterate that it will not be "free," but you will not be able to find the charge for it. Thanks for listening! Doug PS - We do not have pay showers or even push button thingys.
Just saw in the Good Sam magazine that 80% of campers have internet access at home, but not sure how that translates to campers with computers that might be used in the camper. It also indicated that about 25% of campgrounds had WiFi. It also talked about the pitfalls of the WiFi providers and that many campgrounds don’t get it done right. I can see this myself. I think a good instruction sheet would go a long way to eliminating problems. A statement to the effect that please do not use the service for listing to music and for long time downloads as this would raise the cost for everybody. I once listened to an entire NCAA football game on the internet as that was the only place I could get it. Feel bad now that I know the camp is charged by usage.
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Oct 11 2007, 11:39 AM) [snapback]8620[/snapback] Just saw in the Good Sam magazine that 80% of campers have internet access at home, but not sure how that translates to campers with computers that might be used in the camper. It also indicated that about 25% of campgrounds had WiFi. It also talked about the pitfalls of the WiFi providers and that many campgrounds don’t get it done right. I can see this myself. I think a good instruction sheet would go a long way to eliminating problems. A statement to the effect that please do not use the service for listing to music and for long time downloads as this would raise the cost for everybody. I once listened to an entire NCAA football game on the internet as that was the only place I could get it. Feel bad now that I know the camp is charged by usage. Do you know if that article is available online? I would like to read it. I don't know why they would recomend against using the internet of downloading music, etc. Those kinds of uses are pretty standard for internet users now and providers shouldn't price-gouge because their customers are using their service to its fullest. I know we don't do that and I haven't heard of competitors doing it either. I guess I should read the article to make sure I understand what the author meant.
Hi Lindsay, Don't feel bad. Listening to a radio broadcast can be done with even a dialup connection--in fact I'm able to do it with my cell phone--and the maximum connection speed I have is 14.4 (one quarter of regular dialup speed). The campground owner pays for bandwidth--but recovers the cost either by increased fees for sites, direct fees for use, or rebates from the 3rd party provider. The third party provider rates are often *very* high to the end user (that's YOU). The costs of providing bandwidth have dropped over 1000% (not a typo) since the internet started--and the fees we pay have not gone down. If anything--they have increased. The biggest cost to the campground owner is the initial investment for equipment. If they are rural the costs are similar to having an internet satellite dish on your RV, plus a good router and some good repeaters. I believe that one owner said he had spent around 8,000.00 for coverage of a few more than 100 sites. I'm sure that is a *minor* cost compared to putting in sewer, water, and electrical for a site. If the campground is not rural then the costs drop dramatically for both the installation and the bandwidth. Those campgrounds are far more likely to offer it for "free". So that folks will choose them over the campground down the road. I suspect this was once an issue with things like Cable TV--which I'm sure originally cost a great deal more to install than a wifi internet connection. I admit that one of the questions I ask before I book a site is "do you have free wifi?", however it doesn't stop me from staying at such a campground--it's just a very nice perk. I will pay for direct cost connections--but I refuse to pay the exorbitant rates that the third party providers charge. I'll use my cell phone before I'll do that, or "do without". QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Oct 11 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]8620[/snapback] Just saw in the Good Sam magazine that 80% of campers have internet access at home, but not sure how that translates to campers with computers that might be used in the camper. It also indicated that about 25% of campgrounds had WiFi. It also talked about the pitfalls of the WiFi providers and that many campgrounds don’t get it done right. I can see this myself. I think a good instruction sheet would go a long way to eliminating problems. A statement to the effect that please do not use the service for listing to music and for long time downloads as this would raise the cost for everybody. I once listened to an entire NCAA football game on the internet as that was the only place I could get it. Feel bad now that I know the camp is charged by usage.
That was me who mentioned feeling bad about the radio via the internet, not the campground owner. I always try to conserve their resources as I do my own. When we leave for a while, we turn off the AC, conserve water and power. When we had our lodging business, people would leave for the day and leave the AC on all day so it would be cold when they got back. I think the tendency is for people to save at home and not care when somebody else pays. I also think the camping community is much better than the average public. I recently go a bogus ticket from a Bubba" nasty small town cop and am looking for good way to alert the camping public.
Hi Lindsay, I know it was you who mentioned feeling bad. You need not feel bad--the amount of bandwidth you consumed by listening was quite low. In those days when I didn't have an RV I always turned off all the lights and shut off the AC or lowered the heat in Hotel rooms when I was going to be out for the day. It ought to be common courtesy to do so imho. QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Oct 12 2007, 10:08 AM) [snapback]8628[/snapback] That was me who mentioned feeling bad about the radio via the internet, not the campground owner. I always try to conserve their resources as I do my own. When we leave for a while, we turn off the AC, conserve water and power. When we had our lodging business, people would leave for the day and leave the AC on all day so it would be cold when they got back. I think the tendency is for people to save at home and not care when somebody else pays. I also think the camping community is much better than the average public. I recently go a bogus ticket from a Bubba" nasty small town cop and am looking for good way to alert the camping public.
Hi leok22, Yes it is, if you are a Good Sam member. QUOTE(leok22 @ Oct 11 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]8621[/snapback] Do you know if that article is available online? I would like to read it. I don't know why they would recomend against using the internet of downloading music, etc. Those kinds of uses are pretty standard for internet users now and providers shouldn't price-gouge because their customers are using their service to its fullest. I know we don't do that and I haven't heard of competitors doing it either. I guess I should read the article to make sure I understand what the author meant.
QUOTE(pianotuna @ Oct 11 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]8625[/snapback] Hi Lindsay, Don't feel bad. Listening to a radio broadcast can be done with even a dialup connection--in fact I'm able to do it with my cell phone--and the maximum connection speed I have is 14.4 (one quarter of regular dialup speed). The campground owner pays for bandwidth--but recovers the cost either by increased fees for sites, direct fees for use, or rebates from the 3rd party provider. The third party provider rates are often *very* high to the end user (that's YOU). The costs of providing bandwidth have dropped over 1000% (not a typo) since the internet started--and the fees we pay have not gone down. If anything--they have increased. The biggest cost to the campground owner is the initial investment for equipment. If they are rural the costs are similar to having an internet satellite dish on your RV, plus a good router and some good repeaters. I believe that one owner said he had spent around 8,000.00 for coverage of a few more than 100 sites. I'm sure that is a *minor* cost compared to putting in sewer, water, and electrical for a site. If the campground is not rural then the costs drop dramatically for both the installation and the bandwidth. Those campgrounds are far more likely to offer it for "free". So that folks will choose them over the campground down the road. I suspect this was once an issue with things like Cable TV--which I'm sure originally cost a great deal more to install than a wifi internet connection. I admit that one of the questions I ask before I book a site is "do you have free wifi?", however it doesn't stop me from staying at such a campground--it's just a very nice perk. I will pay for direct cost connections--but I refuse to pay the exorbitant rates that the third party providers charge. I'll use my cell phone before I'll do that, or "do without". QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Oct 11 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]8620[/snapback] Just saw in the Good Sam magazine that 80% of campers have internet access at home, but not sure how that translates to campers with computers that might be used in the camper. It also indicated that about 25% of campgrounds had WiFi. It also talked about the pitfalls of the WiFi providers and that many campgrounds don’t get it done right. I can see this myself. I think a good instruction sheet would go a long way to eliminating problems. A statement to the effect that please do not use the service for listing to music and for long time downloads as this would raise the cost for everybody. I once listened to an entire NCAA football game on the internet as that was the only place I could get it. Feel bad now that I know the camp is charged by usage. Hi again Pianotuna, To clear up a little confusion about WIFI, the costs for WIFI equipment and bandwidth for RV parks in rural locations is not at all comparable to having an internet satellite dish on your RV. RV satellite systems are only capable of of providing enough bandwidth to service that RV, similar to the "Wild Blue" or Starband " home direct satellite systems. A system capable of delivering adequate bandwdth to redistribute throughout an RV park requires a much larger dish and considerbly more bandwidith. Additionally, the reason that satellite based WIFI providers "prohibit" or tell you not to do do any internet gaming, streaming or large downloads or uploads is that it uses up the bandwidth allotment for the location under the Fair Access Plan (FAP). Under FAP, a location (RV Park) is alloted a certain amount of bandwidth to use in a 24 hour period. Once that amount is exceeded, the satellite company (Hughes Electronics), cuts back the speed to that location to a speed that is slower than slow dial-up. For three years we were unaware of this policy, and every evening when the sytem slowed down to a point that our customers complained about the system crashiing, we just thought that it was a problem with the our system. Internet gaming on satellite based systems uses tremendous amounts of bandwidth because there is constant communication to and from the satellite. The uplink portion of the gaming uses as much bandwidth as the downlink portion. Remember, the term WIFI (as aopposed to internet) is a system of radios with continual two way signals. The same airways are being used whether you are sending data from your computer or receiving it. For us the "Fix" for our system was to purchase more bandwidth, which icreased our monthly ongoing costs for bandwidth from $129 to $200/mo. If usage in the park increases to a point that we are once again bouncing up against the FAP threshold, we will have to purchase additional bandwidth, a larger dish, and replace most of the equipment we currently have. I hope this helps some. Doug
I was at one RV park where it was through a third party provider. It was "free" for 24 hours, but in order to get the "free" you had to provide a credit card. I refuse to provide a credit card for the "free" part, because then the provider has your credit card and can "whack" you and they you have to fight the charge. The laws on credit card fraud only go so far, you can't just tell VISA to refuse the charge, you have to eventually resolve it with the one that "whacked" you. Also, from what I have seen on posts here, the "definition" of "24 hours" may not be what you think it is. If you sign up for the "Free" part at 4:00 PM, you think you have 24 hours from 4:00 PM only to find that it expired at midnight. I read that in a post somewhere on here. If you have to provide a credit card to get something "free," DON'T DO IT! :angry: JJ
Hi Parkview, I was not at all confused. One of your posts quoted $8k for hardware and 200 per month for bandwidth. That is a very small installed cost compared to many other items you graciously provide to your clients--such as power/water on a per site basis. What I was trying to make clear to Lindsay is that a streaming radio program (max 128 bit, and more likely only 32 bit, so far as I am aware) is not going to "stress" the bandwidth allotted. As your on going costs are $200 per month for bandwidth plus say $100.00 a month for maintenance and you receive a fee of 30% of the charge your satellite company collects from the camper/client, it would appear to me that your satellite system is a small positive cash flow to you. That's well and good. You are *not* a charity. It is true that small positive cash flow will take some time to repay the initial investment. Unfortunately I would not be one of the folks to contribute--as I find third party providers too rich for my blood--when I can use my cell phone at no additional cost to me. QUOTE(Parkview @ Oct 13 2007, 10:12 AM) [snapback]8632[/snapback] Hi again Pianotuna, To clear up a little confusion about WIFI, the costs for WIFI equipment and bandwidth for RV parks in rural locations is not at all comparable to having an internet satellite dish on your RV. RV satellite systems are only capable of of providing enough bandwidth to service that RV, similar to the "Wild Blue" or Starband " home direct satellite systems. A system capable of delivering adequate bandwdth to redistribute throughout an RV park requires a much larger dish and considerbly more bandwidith. Additionally, the reason that satellite based WIFI providers "prohibit" or tell you not to do do any internet gaming, streaming or large downloads or uploads is that it uses up the bandwidth allotment for the location under the Fair Access Plan (FAP). Under FAP, a location (RV Park) is alloted a certain amount of bandwidth to use in a 24 hour period. Once that amount is exceeded, the satellite company (Hughes Electronics), cuts back the speed to that location to a speed that is slower than slow dial-up. For three years we were unaware of this policy, and every evening when the sytem slowed down to a point that our customers complained about the system crashiing, we just thought that it was a problem with the our system. Internet gaming on satellite based systems uses tremendous amounts of bandwidth because there is constant communication to and from the satellite. The uplink portion of the gaming uses as much bandwidth as the downlink portion. Remember, the term WIFI (as aopposed to internet) is a system of radios with continual two way signals. The same airways are being used whether you are sending data from your computer or receiving it. For us the "Fix" for our system was to purchase more bandwidth, which icreased our monthly ongoing costs for bandwidth from $129 to $200/mo. If usage in the park increases to a point that we are once again bouncing up against the FAP threshold, we will have to purchase additional bandwidth, a larger dish, and replace most of the equipment we currently have. I hope this helps some. Doug
Hi all, I just got back from the local pc user's group meeting where this topic came up. One of the members was having poor signal strength--and he is an old Ham Radio guy. He happened to look closely at the properties in the device manager. Here is what was suggested! Some wifi cards have an automatic power lowering device--if it is not working properly the signal strength will be compromised. For some Intel wifi cards the power saving program is in the control panel Follow the directions below. control panel system hardware device manager network adapter Intel pro wireless 2200 bg network connection (Or whatever your wifi device is) advanced power management set this as high as it will go then go to transmit power set this as high as it will go It seems to make a difference for my laptop. Perhaps it will help someone.
