QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Nov 14 2008, 12:19 PM) [snapback]13905[/snapback] ... Hopefully in a few years, all computers will connect via a small satellite antenna and I can export my wifi equipment to the dumpster... EXACTLY what we recommended to a new park owner we worked with this past summer. Like you, his park lies in an beautifully underdeveloped location...thus doesn't have many options in order to provide WiFi for his guests. Spending a living fortune chasing a rapidly changing technology was not penciling out. We just quizzed folks checking in as to WiFi needs and parked them as close to the office as possible. That worked 90% of the time. We were lucky I guess: no one came unglued. B)
My guess is that is not too far off. The technology will change so quickly it will make your head spin. WiFi as we know it will go the way of the 8-track and dial up.
Hi Western, You say it doesn't generate revenue. I disagree. All other things being equal I'll stay in a free wifi park over a non wifi park, and even in a "paid" wifi park over a no wifi park. QUOTE(westernrvparkowner @ Nov 14 2008, 02:19 PM) [snapback]13905[/snapback] My system is as efficent as possible. Guests must watch their bandwidth usage, not expect optimum performance during peak usage times and possibly deal with a slow connection. We explain this to everyone who asks about wifi, but that doesn't always prevent hard feelings. As I have said before, WiFi is a necessary EVIL to campgrounds. It doesn't generate revenue, but it does generate bad feelings.
Thanks westernparkowner for a great explanation. I almost understand it now. On the other hand I'll show my ignorance with this question. When you are at a place that has Wi-Fi does it hurt anything to stay connected when you're not actually using the computer? I have stayed at parks where their system was a little complicated to get on-line so once I got on I stayed on. Is that a no-no?
QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Nov 15 2008, 01:07 AM) [snapback]13923[/snapback] Thanks westernparkowner for a great explanation. I almost understand it now. On the other hand I'll show my ignorance with this question. When you are at a place that has Wi-Fi does it hurt anything to stay connected when you're not actually using the computer? I have stayed at parks where their system was a little complicated to get on-line so once I got on I stayed on. Is that a no-no? Technically..... yeah...... You're preventing someone else from getting on, only so much bandwidth to go around. But I confess that I, too, have done this, because it was a pain in the **** to get back on once you were off...... I stayed at one park where they recommended to just close the lid of your laptop, which would go in "sleep" mode, and then would automatically reconnect when you opened the lid. I try to follow that approach. But it doesn't always work at some parks, and then I resort to doing what you did..... JJ
So just having your computer connected to a park's Wi-Fi uses up enough bandwidth that it could keep someone else from connecting. Maybe that is why I couldn't get on sometimes when the park claimed there was nothing wrong with their system. Interesting! Like I said I have only done that a few times when the logon was a pain. I'll keep that info in mind. Thanks. (Notice I didn't say I wouldn't do it again )
I, too, want to thank Western for the imaginative and picturesque explanation. It reinforced my understanding of one of the lesser known potential problems with park WIFI systems. You are still going to sometimes have some of the other issues (distance, blockage, etc.), but ,at least now, some of us will understand that we (the customers) can be part of the problem. That was probably my main goal in asking my original question. My concern was the heavy duty users mentioned in prior posts. I was hoping that they would realize the negative impact their usage can have on others. Believe me, I known what a pain it can often be to re-log every time you want to use the net if the proccess takes more than a few minutes. The only time I leave it on is when I am multi-tasking (how yuppyish does that sound?). For example, I often start up the laptop, go put in a load of laundry, come back for 20 minutes of computing, back to fill the dryer, back to the net, and so on. If I know I am going to be gone for more than 15-20 minutes, I log off and turn off the computer. I don't go off to the pool or for a walk and leave it on or even plugged in. But that's just me, it probably has more to do with memories of my dad asking "who left the lights on in the (name of room)?". I would think that one heavy duty user eats up more bandwidth than 10, 20, 30 folks who are just logged on but not using the system. End of rant.
I guess that's why I feel that moderation should be imposed on people who are using free WiFi for downloading movies, songs, etc. I don't do that. If someone emails me a "4 minute video" to watch (and I'm on free Wifi), I don't even watch it, I just delete the email. All I'm concerned about is checking my email, checking my bills, and checking weather and road conditions. That will use up some bandwidth, but not as much as downloading entire movies! I'm still thinking of getting a Verizon aircard, although it's $55 or so a month if you don't have their cell phone. I think I could keep under the bandwidth limits. JJ
I had to go to a coded system when I found the neighbors were enjoying my wi-fi more than my guests. This has eliminated a lot of the problems. I still have guests who do not shut down when done using their computers, which causes a problem with others getting on. To facilitate ease of use for everyone, I regularly reboot the system, which kicks everyone off. And then those that were having problems getting on are now able to get right on. What always amazes me is how many other things are connected to the wi-fi! For sure if I start having problems with the wi-fi, the pool heater will quit, or the hot tub pump will burn up, or the ice machine will quit working........it never fails. And it is usually on Friday afternoons!
QUOTE "WiFi is a necessary EVIL to campgrounds. It doesn't generate revenue, but it does generate bad feelings" I do think it generates revenue in that having it increases usage of the park. No doubt about it for me and from what we are reading on different forums. I think the hard feeling only happen when it isn't working. Not working is going to happen with anything. I think good communications on the phone when taking day of stay reservations can really help with the hard feelings here.
Hi TX, It does use bandwidth. However most routers have a "limit" as to how many users can log on. Typically this number is 100 users. Think about a pie. Slicing it into four pieces wastes very little of the pie. Slice it into 100 pieces and a lot of the pie is lost to slicing. QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Nov 15 2008, 02:28 PM) [snapback]13928[/snapback] So just having your computer connected to a park's Wi-Fi uses up enough bandwidth that it could keep someone else from connecting. Maybe that is why I couldn't get on sometimes when the park claimed there was nothing wrong with their system. Interesting! Like I said I have only done that a few times when the logon was a pain. I'll keep that info in mind. Thanks. (Notice I didn't say I wouldn't do it again ) Hi TX, Air card = cellular modem. If there is a cell phone signal and the cell tower company offers "data service" then the modem will work. If there is no signal or not enough signal then it will not work. Speed is determined by the type of equipment at the cell phone tower and signal strength. It can be slower than dial up--or at it's most bright and shiny about the same as regular DSL wired connection. QUOTE(Texasrvers @ Nov 13 2008, 07:24 PM) [snapback]13884[/snapback] I have never used an aircard, so just out of curiosity do they ever fail or not get reception?
Hi Lindsay, EVDO Rev A has download speeds of 2400 kbps and upload of about 600. This is fast enough for major downloads. What can be poor is ping time. 1Xrtt is about 140 kbps down and 99 up. This is fast enough to do streaming audio at 16 kbps. Some few companies offer unlimited bandwidth. I happen to be with one of them. Unfortunately in USA the unlimited feature disappears, so I agree cost can be a factor. QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Nov 13 2008, 09:21 PM) [snapback]13889[/snapback] People who are used to surfing the internet or doing big downloads or uploads are probably not going to be satisfied with an air card due to speed issues. It is great for those wanting to check email. Cost is also a factor.
Hey guys, when I say that wifi is not a revenue generator, it's because I am putting it in the same catagory as water, sewer, electricity, cable tv etc. I consider these items an expense necessary to operate the campground. Technically, they do generate revenue in that they are needed to get customers. That being said, wifi generates 10 times the negative feelings than all the other items combined. If the sewer clogs, people will laugh as I dig in the sewage to correct the problem, they do not get irate. If the power fails almost everybody understands that sometimes the power goes out. A water leak or a shower that doesn't have the same water pressure as a fire hose won't automatically cause a guest to use all of George Carlin's seven words you can't say on TV in every sentence. If the cable doesn't work in someone's coach, they don't accuse me of having a bad system when I troubleshoot it to the tv amplifier in the coach being on, or they connected to satellite-in connection instead of the cable-in. Failure to connect to the wifi system, on the other hand, is ALWAYS the campground's fault. Don't have a wifi card or a wireless modem in the computer?....Campground's fault. Wireless card or modem turned off?..campground's fault. Haven't upgraded the computer with required updates? .. campground's fault. Have security settings installed by your computer savvy grandson that prevents connections to anything but your home dial up?...campground's fault. No cellular service compatible to your aircard?...campground's fault. Battery dead in laptop and you don't have a power cord? campground's fault. The list goes on and on. I hate wifi.
Hi JJ, I have my cellular modem--and I love it to death. I still use wifi--but it is very comforting to know that if wifi is not available I can just plug in my modem to a usb port and within seconds I'm online. I will be getting a wifi router to use with the cell modem. So long as I have unlimited bandwidth I will leave the router unprotected so others may piggy back on my internet connection. I believe the cell modem is still 59.00 per month even if you *do* have a Verizon cell phone. What is possible is having a cell phone and adding a "data" feature to it. After having my local provider try to tether my old cell phone to my laptop for 90 minutes--I'd not go that direction. I'm sold on the cellular modems! I'll not leave home without it. QUOTE(DXSMac @ Nov 15 2008, 05:29 PM) [snapback]13936[/snapback] I guess that's why I feel that moderation should be imposed on people who are using free WiFi for downloading movies, songs, etc. I don't do that. If someone emails me a "4 minute video" to watch (and I'm on free Wifi), I don't even watch it, I just delete the email. All I'm concerned about is checking my email, checking my bills, and checking weather and road conditions. That will use up some bandwidth, but not as much as downloading entire movies! I'm still thinking of getting a Verizon aircard, although it's $55 or so a month if you don't have their cell phone. I think I could keep under the bandwidth limits. JJ
QUOTE(Lindsay Richards @ Nov 15 2008, 04:27 PM) [snapback]13940[/snapback] I think good communications on the phone when taking day of stay reservations can really help with the hard feelings here. Not when the person on the reservation line is "tech ignorant." "OH yeah, we have WiFi." "Oh yeah, it works." Then you check in and it doesn't....... I stayed at a park in Garibaldi, OR, that had four different codes, and all four of them were hard to access! You were lucky to get a signal between 2 and 3 PM in the afternoon! JJ
Thanks again, Western, for your insightful explanation. I can relate completely to your frustration since a long time ago my job required me to do some computer system troubleshooting (but at a much lower level than you deal with and it was not Wi-Fi.) Sometimes when I got a call that a computer wasn't working I literally had to plug it in and turn it on for the person, so I really do understand that the fault can be with the user. Now for my next ignorant question. The answer will probably be so technical I won't understand it, but here goes anyway. Why is it that my computer will connect just fine at one park, and I can't get it to access and/or hold a connection at the next park 12 hours later? This is when "user error" does not fly very well with me. How can the same machine have all the Wi-Fi cards, correct settings, upgrades, etc. that are needed to connect at one park and not another? I'm not saying the user (me included) is never at fault, but when my computer works fine at one place and not another, it makes me think the problem is with the park's system. I'm not trying to argue about who's at fault, I'm just wondering how this can happen.
I agree with westernrvparkowner completely with his latest comments. People get irate about the wi-fi, even if we are in the middle of troubleshooting the problem. Recently we had a modem going out on us. It worked sporadically. Sometimes when doing the diagnostics, it was working and showed 5 or 6 people connected. 5 minutes later no one could get on. While tracking the problem down, which took a couple of hours, people were browbeating the office staff to the point that one of them almost quit. JJ, not all employees are computer techs, in fact very few workcampers are. I do not expect them to be techs. They are here to check people in and take care of the business at the office/mini-mart. We have a professional tech on the payroll, and he gets called when there are problems. Can he be here within 5 minutes? No. Do we get priority over the rest of his accounts? No. Will he be here as soon as he can? Yes. If there is a problem with any part of our facility......wi-fi, hot tub, pool, etc., everyone is notified about that at check-in. We also give an approximate time (or date) that it will be fully functional again.
I too have been told many times that it is my computer only to learn that others in the park couldn’t connect either and that I could easily connect down at the parking lot in front of Staples or some other free WiFi spot. One thing that I have learned to do is not go in and start changing a bunch of setting on my computer and get it messed up. I will change one thing and then try to long on and then set it back before changing anything else. I am sure that sometimes it might be my computer, but the bulk of the time it is the park’s system. I know everybody can’t be an expert in computers, but if nothing else I would think they might even have a second cheapie system in the office that we could go up and use for important stuff. My Verizon cell phone contract expires in December and I can get a new phone for free and I have been considering getting an internet capable phone for $100 extra so that I can get on line and look at email. I would use this for checking my banking that I need to do when without WiFi. We get some monthly deposits and I need to be aware of them. Does anybody else do this and does it work for you?
QUOTE(dancyn @ Nov 16 2008, 01:23 AM) [snapback]13953[/snapback] JJ, not all employees are computer techs, in fact very few workcampers are. I do not expect them to be techs. They are here to check people in and take care of the business at the office/mini-mart. We have a professional tech on the payroll, and he gets called when there are problems. Can he be here within 5 minutes? No. Do we get priority over the rest of his accounts? No. Will he be here as soon as he can? Yes. True, true, true. I've gotten to the point where I don't expect the "check in" people to be "tech savy." There is one park I like to stay in that has "instant phone connections." One time I paid for the connection and it didn't work. I really started to think my phone had gone bad, but it turned out that (I forgot which it was), either 1) the check in person "didn't flip the right switch" or 2) the switches were "crossed." One of the park employees spent a bunch of time trying to figure it out, and I appreciated their time! And I got to use the phone connection. At this park, the phone connection is a good "backup" to the WiFi, as long as you are paying for a dial up ISP (which I still do..... rarely use it, but still have it, "just in case...."). JJ
Something that rarely comes up is the simple fact that WiFi is a radio signal. As such, it is subject to a variety of disturbances. You essentially have multiple transmitters operating all at the same frequency, colliding with one another. You have electrical wiring, reflective metallic surfaces, other signal noise from thing such as microwaves. Throw in a high power router between you and the target wifi antenna. The wifi radio system was not really intended for wide area, outdoor use. Think about microwave towers, they actually transmit point to point, not wide area broadcasting, and wifi is a microwave signal. It has been adapted to it, but it has certain limitations simply inherent to its nature. It is greatly affected by leaves, pine needles, weather etc. as they scatter the signal. Think about your cell phone, sometimes you have to find the just the right spot for it to work. It's no different for wifi. Radio signals of all kinds are also subject to its weakest link. Most wifi systems broadcast at a higher power than your laptop does. The wifi system antenna is exposed. Your laptop antenna is either inside the computer or at best sticking out on one side or the other. Your laptop broadcasts at a much lower power. That is why you can often "see" the wifi system but cannot communicate with it. Your signal can't get to it. Add to the mix the signal being digital, it's all or nothing. Unfortunately, the weakest link is usually at the users end, not the campground. You can't typically increase your transmit power, but getting a better antenna that sits outside, even aimed at the wifi repeater/router/node (cantenna), can eliminate much of the trouble. I don't care how many repeaters, nodes, antennas are out there, simply because it is a radio signal means you can guarantee 100% coverage 100% of the time with 100% signal. Oh by the way, sitting directly under the wifi antenna is a radio signal dead zone, referred to a the cone of silence, or blind cone. It's not the place to be to test your connectivity. Now, look at the different ways of providing wifi. An open system that allows anyone and everyone connect all of the time without any modifications. Password protected open systems allows users to access an entry page only. WEP, WPA, ssid on or off, wifi channel, and more. Master/Node systems. Signal boosters. repeaters. A,B,G,N systems. Is your computer default set to connect to only one system? Just look at the variety of options in the Windows wifi connection properties screens. Is you computer updated? Does it even have a wifi card? the possibilities are endless as to why there may be a connection problem. The details on this part of wifi are out of my realm of expertise This is really an oversimplification of wifi, but I hope it gets the idea across. This is why it works perfectly at one spot and not so good at another, or one day but not the next. Anyone else out there with radio background can surely attest to the variety of anomalies that effect radio signals. The variety of settings. The number of variables. It just isn't as cut and dried as we all would like it to be. As an adapted system, we the end users, must also be willing to adapt with it as well, that is if we really want it. Understanding what you're trying to use, what it really is, the equipment involved and all of its limitations, understanding that things sometimes break, remembering our own experiences with a variety of electronic products that do strange things every now and then, can go a long way to preventing undue stress over wifi. It's my computer. It's my responsibility. I have no expectation of the campground to fix my computer to connect to their network. I have been to many campgrounds that provide a simple setting sheet for their wifi to assist in connecting. To me, that's fair. I undertsand most campgrounds don't have an IT department. I do not believe that wifi is a priority over cleaning the bathrooms, and that often resources at a campground are very limited and require prioritization. I have no expectation of a campground to run around at 2 pm knocking on doors to explain the wifi is down for whatever reason. Save that for when the guy 4 sites down backs over the water spigot and into the electric box, knocking out half the campground. If I absolutely had to have mobile connectivity, knowing what I know, I would not rely solely on wifi anywhere. I would have a backup, or better yet, wifi would be my backup. A hard line still provides the most reliable connection.
